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1 SENATE/HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
2 THE 21ST LEGISLATURE
3 INTERIM OF 2001
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7 JOINT SENATE-HOUSE INVESTIGATIVE COMMITTEE HEARING
8 OCTOBER 20, 2001
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12 Taken at the State Capitol, 415 South Beretania,
13 Conference Room 325, Honolulu, Hawaii, commencing at
14 8:58 a.m. on Saturday, October 20, 2001.
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19 BEFORE: JESSICA R. PERRY, CSR No. 404
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1 APPEARANCES:
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3 Senate-House Investigative Committee:
4 Co-Chair Senator Colleen Hanabusa
5 Co-Chair Representative Scott Saiki
6 Vice-Chair Senator Russell Kokubun
7 Vice-Chair Representative Blake Oshiro
8 Senator Jan Yagi Buen
9 Representative Ken Ito
10 Representative Bertha Kawakami
11 Representative Bertha Leong
12 Representative Barbara Marumoto
13 Senator David Matsuura
14 Senator Norman Sakamoto
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17 Also Present:
18 Special Counsel James Kawashima
19 Robert Bethea, Esq.
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1 I N D E X
2 WITNESS: MR. KENNETH OMURA
3 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
4 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA.............. 8
5 VICE-CHAIR SENATOR KOKUBUN............. 61
6 VICE-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE OSHIRO....... 65
7 SENATOR BUEN........................... 68
8 REPRESENTATIVE ITO..................... 72
9 SENATOR MATSUURA....................... 75
10 REPRESENTATIVE KAWAKAMI................ 78
11 SENATOR SLOM........................... 82
12 REPRESENTATIVE LEONG................... 87
13 REPRESENTATIVE MARUMOTO................ 89
14 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA.............. 92
15 WITNESS: MS. KANIU KINIMAKA-STOCKSDALE
16 EXAMINATION BY:
17 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA.............. 96
18 SENATOR SLOM........................... 182
19 REPRESENTATIVE MARUMOTO................ 189
20 SENATOR MATSUURA....................... 195
21 REPRESENTATIVE LEONG................... 201
22 SENATOR BUEN........................... 204
23 REPRESENTATIVE KAWAKAMI................ 209
24 SENATOR KOKUBUN........................ 214
25 REPRESENTATIVE ITO..................... 220
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1 I N D E X, (Continued)
2 VICE-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE OSHIRO....... 228
3 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA.............. 224
4 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI.......... 241
5 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA.............. 245
6 VICE-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE OSHIRO....... 250
7 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI.......... 252
8 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA.............. 253
9 SENATOR SLOM........................... 255
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Good morning.
3 We'd like to convene our joint investigative committee to
4 investigate the state's efforts to comply with the Felix
5 consent decree. We'll begin with the roll call.
6 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Co-Chair Saiki?
7 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Present.
8 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Vice-Chair
9 Kokubun?
10 VICE-CHAIR SENATOR KOKUBUN: Here.
11 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Vice-Chair Oshiro?
12 VICE-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE OSHIRO: Here.
13 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Senator Buen?
14 SENATOR BUEN: Here.
15 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Representative
16 Ito?
17 REPRESENTATIVE ITO: Here.
18 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Representative
19 Kawakami?
20 REPRESENTATIVE KAWAKAMI: Here.
21 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Representative
22 Leong?
23 REPRESENTATIVE LEONG: Here.
24 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Representative
25 Marumoto?
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1 REPRESENTATIVE MARUMOTO: Here.
2 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Senator Matsuura?
3 SENATOR MATSUURA: Here.
4 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Senator Sakamoto
5 is excuse. Senator Slom?
6 SENATOR SLOM: Here.
7 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Co-Chair Hanabusa
8 is here. We have quorum.
9 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank you,
10 members. Members, before we proceed with testimony from
11 witnesses this morning, the co-chairs would like to make a
12 motion to convene this committee in executive session for the
13 purpose of discussing recent communications with our special
14 counsel and recent events concerning the investigation. Is
15 there any discussion? If not, we'll take a roll call vote.
16 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Co-Chair Saiki?
17 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Yes.
18 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Senator Kokubun?
19 VICE-CHAIR SENATOR KOKUBUN: Aye.
20 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Representative
21 Oshiro?
22 VICE-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE OSHIRO: Aye.
23 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Senator Buen?
24 SENATOR BUEN: Aye.
25 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Representative
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1 Ito?
2 REPRESENTATIVE ITO: Aye.
3 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Representative
4 Kawakami?
5 REPRESENTATIVE KAWAKAMI: Aye.
6 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Representative
7 Leong?
8 REPRESENTATIVE LEONG: Aye.
9 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Representative
10 Marumoto?
11 REPRESENTATIVE MARUMOTO: Aye.
12 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Senator Matsuura?
13 SENATOR MATSUURA: Aye.
14 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Senator Sakamoto
15 is excused. Senator Slom?
16 SENATOR SLOM: Aye.
17 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Co-Chair Hanabusa
18 is aye. Motion is carried.
19 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank you,
20 members. We will recess this committee and convene it in
21 executive session next door for 15 minutes, so we will
22 reconvene our public hearing in this room at 9:20 a.m.
23 Recess.
24 (Recess taken.)
25 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Members, we'd
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1 like to reconvene our committee hearing. With your
2 indulgence, we would like to take witnesses out of order this
3 morning. We'd like to begin first with Mr. Kenneth Omura.
4 Is Mr. Omura here? Would you please be seated at the witness
5 table. We will administer the oath at this time.
6 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Mr. Omura, do you
7 solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to
8 give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
9 truth?
10 MR. OMURA: I do.
11 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you.
12 Members, we will be following our usual protocol. Remember,
13 you are under a five-minute restriction when it comes to your
14 questions. So we'll begin with Mr. Kawashima.
15 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Thank you, Madam
16 Chair.
17 EXAMINATION
18 BY SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA:
19 Q. Please state your name and address.
20 A. My name is Kenneth A. Omura, 5859 Haleola Street,
21 Honolulu, Hawaii.
22 Q. And, Mr. Omura, are you presently employed?
23 A. No. I'm retired.
24 Q. And you're retired from where, sir?
25 A. I'm a retired DOE employee.
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1 Q. And when did you retire, Mr. Omura?
2 A. I retired June 30th, '99.
3 Q. And since June 30th, 1999 have you been employed in
4 any capacity with anyone?
5 A. Well, I have done some small contract work with the
6 Honolulu District.
7 Q. I see. Honolulu District of the Department of
8 Education?
9 A. Of the DOE.
10 Q. What type -- generally what type of work is that,
11 sir?
12 A. Provide consult with helping the districts and the
13 schools and the complexes to pass service testing.
14 Q. All right. Service testing related to the Felix
15 consent decree?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. We'll get into that, sir. If I might go back a bit
18 and ask you to give us your educational background after
19 secondary school.
20 A. I received my B.Ed. from the University of Hawaii,
21 secondary ed in counseling, my fifth year certificate and MS
22 in education in counseling from Indiana University.
23 Q. And when did you receive your bachelor's of
24 education in counseling from the university, sir?
25 A. I received my bachelor's in 1959 and my master's in
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1 1961.
2 Q. Am I to understand that after receiving your fifth
3 year certificate and your bachelor's in education you went
4 straight to the University of Indiana and obtained a
5 master's?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. And did you, after completing your master's degree,
8 return to Hawaii and start employment here?
9 A. Yes. I started my career in the school system.
10 Q. With the Department of Education?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. And where did you start, then, sir, in terms of
13 what you did and where you worked?
14 A. Well, basically I was a school -- classroom teacher
15 and counselor. Started at Farrington High School in 1961. I
16 worked as a district educational specialist, started there in
17 1966, overseeing programs, the federal programs, Title 1, at
18 risk activities, counseling and guidance, diagnostic
19 evaluation, health services, and similar types of programs.
20 Q. And how long did you do that, sir, as a district
21 educational specialist?
22 A. Well, I left there in 1995, so I was at the
23 district for 29 years.
24 Q. 29 years doing the same thing involving federal
25 programs and federal laws?
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1 A. That's right.
2 Q. And what happened in 1995, then, sir, where did you
3 go?
4 A. I came to the state office -- DOE state office to
5 serve as the Felix administrator and served as the DOE point
6 for Felix matters initially, and then I became the director
7 of student support services, which oversaw both special ed
8 and student support services as well as other Felix matters.
9 Q. What was the title you used for that second
10 position relating to Felix?
11 A. I was the director of student support services.
12 Q. Who took your place after you left, sir? Was it
13 Mr. Golden?
14 A. Yeah, the specific position, yeah, was Bob Golden,
15 and the role of the Felix point was -- became Doug Houck.
16 Q. And am I to understand, then, sir, from 1995 to
17 1999 when you retired you were very closely involved with the
18 Felix matter and compliance with that, with the consent
19 decree?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did you voluntarily retire, sir?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. As far as you're concerned, did you leave the
24 Department of Education on good terms?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. The reason I ask that is that we have been hearing
2 comments about people being disgruntled or unhappy and coming
3 here to testify. You are here to testify voluntarily, are
4 you not?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. Now, although you have been subpoenaed, it is your
7 intent to give full and truthful testimony to this committee,
8 is it not?
9 A. Best to my recollection, because you must remember
10 I've been retired for two years and things have happened
11 quite fast.
12 Q. Sure. However, though, sir, you have kept up, have
13 you not, through the media at least as to any developments in
14 this area of the Felix consent decree since you've retired?
15 A. Yes, through my work with the district as well as
16 through the media, the newspaper, the television.
17 Q. So although there have been developments, sir, do
18 you feel current as far as where the state is or the
19 department is in terms of the Felix consent decree and
20 compliance therewith?
21 A. Generally I would say yes, I have a general idea.
22 Q. Am I to understand that in 1995, when you were
23 designated the department point person as far as Felix
24 matters were concerned, you were the highest person in the
25 Department of Education state of Hawaii related to Felix
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1 compliance?
2 A. Yes. Well, I guess.
3 Q. And you reported directly to the superintendent,
4 did you not?
5 A. Through the -- I reported to the assistant
6 superintendent for instruction, which is Ken Yamamoto.
7 Q. Is he still in that position, sir?
8 A. No. He retired just about the same time that I
9 left.
10 Q. I see.
11 A. Or earlier.
12 Q. You reported to Mr. Yamamoto who then reported to
13 the superintendent; is that your understanding?
14 A. That's right. We did have direct access to the
15 superintendent.
16 Q. During the time that you worked with Felix from
17 1995 on, did you have communications, conversations with
18 personnel -- education personnel in other states as to how
19 they were handling Felix -- I should say special education
20 and IDEA matters?
21 A. Yes. Generally we -- whenever we would go to
22 conferences or have some meetings, you know, we'd get a
23 general whiff of what other districts or other states -- the
24 level of services and whatever kinds of reports are provided,
25 you know, on a national level too, as well as what's
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1 presented in the legal kind of documents that come out.
2 Q. Sure. Maybe what we ought to do is set some
3 foundation for what you're going to testify to today,
4 Mr. Omura. The IDEA -- the IDEA stands for what, sir?
5 A. Well, IDEA is an acronym for Individuals with
6 Disabilities Education Act, and basically it is a federal
7 legislation which is meant to ensure free appropriate public
8 education, and it further defines a set of related services
9 which would be necessary to benefit the child's learning,
10 so -- and basically that's what it is.
11 Q. Thank you. By virtue of its name, sir, it is
12 intended to ensure that this free and appropriate education
13 or -- or free and appropriate public education you mentioned
14 would -- was for children with disabilities, right?
15 A. Yes, and the emphasis is on the education of the
16 child.
17 Q. And that's important, is it not, the emphasis being
18 on the education of the child?
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. And that was a specific goal of the IDEA, was it
21 not?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. Now, the Felix consent decree I believe was entered
24 in 1994. Does that sound right to you?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. You dealt quite closely with the decree during the
2 time that you were first starting being point person all the
3 way to the time you retired in 1999; is that correct?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. So maybe you can explain to us, sir, your
6 understanding of how the Felix decree related to the IDEA.
7 A. Well, the Felix decree is a result of a lawsuit
8 against the state of Hawaii with -- alleging that the state
9 was not providing mental health services to children
10 requiring such services. So the Felix decree very
11 specifically was meant to -- initially was a lawsuit claiming
12 that the state was in violation of IDEA because of its lack
13 of appropriate and meaningful mental health services. The
14 decree also, initially anyway, further defined the class as
15 being zero to 20 for children requiring education and mental
16 health services.
17 Q. Now --
18 A. Basically --
19 Q. I'm sorry, go ahead.
20 A. Basically that was the idea of IDEA -- of the Felix
21 decree at that time. Subsequent to those early -- the
22 earlier court decisions and what not, we have moved from that
23 early definition and have included a set of services that
24 have expanded, let's say, from the earlier requirement to
25 meet the strict IDEA standards and have gone beyond what we
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1 say the definition of what we consider to be related --
2 related -- required related services as requiring services
3 which will benefit the child, the child's education. So I
4 think what I'm trying to say is that it has gone beyond the
5 benefit of the education realm into other kinds of services.
6 Q. We'll talk about that, sir, in a few minutes. Am I
7 to understand, then, that as far as the initial consent
8 decree, that as far as you were concerned, that the intent of
9 the decree was good?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The decree, though, was fairly general, was it not,
12 in terms of what should happen for there to be compliance?
13 A. Well, I guess so because we were having difficulty
14 to determine what would be appropriate benchmarks to reach,
15 yeah, so in that sense it was general and it was a matter of
16 meeting and deciding what would be appropriate benchmarks.
17 Q. And were there such meetings, by the way, along the
18 way where the Department of Education was attempting to
19 decide what these appropriate benchmarks would be?
20 A. Very early on, I guess, when we tried to, shall we
21 say, define what the tasks were, what the -- how we could get
22 out of the decree, we attempted to put in clearer terms what
23 was -- should be expected of both DOE and DOH and all
24 other -- the whole state system, really, to get out of the
25 thing.
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1 Q. Now, you testified a few minutes ago, Mr. Omura,
2 that there were situations where the subsequent orders from
3 the Felix court required services that were not, in your
4 opinion, required under the IDEA?
5 A. Well --
6 Q. Were there such, we shall say, orders that expanded
7 what was required?
8 A. Yeah, I'm sorry, but basically the expansion to the
9 expected activities or expected services came with subsequent
10 court appearances as the state was taken back to court under
11 the -- claiming that the state was in contempt for not
12 complying with certain kinds of services, and as new court
13 orders came out, then you had gradual expansion of what was
14 expected or what should be level of services to be provided.
15 So that's the manner in which I think much of the expansions
16 were slowly created. Let's put it that way.
17 Q. By the way, your understanding of what the IDEA
18 federal law required and your opinions as to the requirements
19 or the services required under the IDEA being expanded was
20 based upon working with the IDEA very closely here in Hawaii
21 and also with discussions with others in the same position as
22 you were in other states, right?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. So that it wasn't only you here in Hawaii looking
25 at the issue. Nationwide people were looking at the same
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1 issues as you were, were they not?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. And you had discussions with these people about
4 what was appropriate and what was not appropriate under the
5 IDEA?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. And it was with that background that you came to
8 the understanding or the opinion that the IDEA was being
9 expanded too much here in Hawaii?
10 A. Well, it was, yes, being expanded, right.
11 Q. Can you give us specific examples, Mr. Omura, of
12 what you mean when you talk about these expansions that
13 occurred subsequent to the initial consent decree being
14 entered?
15 A. Well, I think when you look at what -- the
16 requirements today for the schools as they go through service
17 testing and how they are judged, you know, to pass
18 compliance, you have things like the schools and -- the
19 school system is required to provide reading assessments, so
20 a reading assessment for all kids in special education,
21 regardless of whether the child has a reading problem or not,
22 you know, and so it has to be an annual activity, and this
23 definitely, you know, goes beyond the requirements of IDEA.
24 Now, if you look at the requirements that are
25 placed on the state, if you look at the kind of programs
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1 which were incorporated into the Felix consent court order,
2 the consent decree, we find that, for example, part C of
3 IDEA -- I'm getting a little bit technical here, but part C
4 of IDEA refers to infants and toddlers, and that particular
5 program is basically an area which the state may voluntarily
6 participate in. Now, the Felix consent decree has expanded
7 the Felix class to -- from three to 20 to zero to 20 and has
8 included that particular program as a requirement. So in
9 that particular sense, it really goes beyond what the IDEA
10 requirement for the DOE is about.
11 There also are other issues where through further
12 court orders the connection between what we call educational
13 benefit to the child no longer is -- seemed to be the
14 paramount reason for giving of services to kids, and this is
15 where the consent decree has given, shall we say, other
16 agency people, other programs the -- has given them
17 initiative powers, let's say, to request for a whole array of
18 services which, again, may not be connected or even
19 associated with the child's special education needs, such as
20 respite care for parents.
21 Now, respite can be provided by the Department of
22 Health, but it should not be a requirement of DOE as far as
23 providing for services. Parents are coming in and demanding
24 through the IEP process -- demanding baby-sitting so that
25 they can take part in some other kind of activity. We even
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1 have cases where the parents want therapeutic aides outside
2 of the school setting for other kinds of things. So
3 eventually, as the burden falls on the DOE, this is going to
4 be a large expenditure as far as Department of Education's
5 responsibility would be, which is outside and beyond the
6 educational benefit realm of what would be required related
7 services.
8 Q. Now, let me go back a bit and ask you some
9 questions about what you just testified to, sir. You
10 mentioned the reading assessment and the fact that the IDEA
11 does not require a reading assessment of all disabled
12 children; is that correct?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. It only requires it of those who have reading
15 problems; is that right?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. Now, how does it hurt or how does it affect the
18 DOE, then, by, in this case, the decree requiring now a
19 reading assessment of everyone, even the ones who have not
20 demonstrated a problem? How does that create a problem, if
21 it does at all?
22 A. The problem would be that it does require a whole
23 lot more activity at the school level, at the instructional
24 level, implementing that particular -- that in itself may not
25 necessarily be a bad activity, because most special ed
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1 teachers already have some form of diagnostic materials, some
2 benchmark, but what is happening is there's a prescription of
3 a specific test, you know, instrument to be utilized and the
4 manner in which those are reported and this, I think, is an
5 undue burden on the special ed people.
6 Q. Are you referring to the service testing
7 instrument?
8 A. No. I'm referring to just the reading.
9 Q. I see. In other words, of course furthering the
10 reading skills of our students are important. What this does
11 is places burdens on the department that really were not
12 required?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. And that causes the expenditure of more funds, of
15 course; is that correct?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. Now, how about this matter of the services that now
18 are being provided? We've heard testimony -- much testimony
19 in that area, Mr. Omura, not only about baby-sitting but
20 things like providing prom expenses for a child to go to
21 prom, things of that nature. Now, I understood you to say
22 that the IDEA requires a connection between a service and the
23 education of a child; is that correct?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. Now, I also heard you say that the Felix decree,
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1 unfortunately, requires services not only for the child but
2 also for the parents; is that correct?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. And not only parents. We've heard about situations
5 where the system provided for paying baby-sitting expenses to
6 a relative of the child to provide baby-sitting so that the
7 parents could go somewhere else and enjoy themselves. That's
8 what you're referring to?
9 A. We have heard of instances where relatives or
10 brothers or --
11 Q. Who normally would and should do it for free,
12 right?
13 A. Well, in other people's households this takes
14 place, yeah.
15 Q. So it is your opinion, then, that the decree -- the
16 Felix consent decree requires services not only for the
17 child, but for the parents and that is not your understanding
18 or your interpretation of what the IDEA requires?
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. Is that a fair statement?
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. Now, you are aware of the term IEP, individual
23 education plan?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. That's a very critical part of the IDEA, is it not?
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1 A. That's right.
2 Q. And special education. How do these IEPs -- well,
3 maybe you ought to explain to us first what your
4 understanding of what an IEP is.
5 A. IEP --
6 Q. Maybe the process, explain the process.
7 A. The IEP conference, let's put it that way, is a
8 meeting in which the special ed teacher and the counselors or
9 whatever evaluation personnel might -- would sit in with --
10 sit with parents and discuss presenting problems, the
11 evaluation data, and work on objectives and strategies and
12 what the parents would hope to be the objectives of that
13 particular year. So generally it's in that kind of setting
14 where the individual education plan is developed and agreed
15 upon by the parties.
16 Q. Now, when you say parties, you mentioned so far
17 special education teachers, of course, right?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. You mentioned the child himself or herself, right?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. You mentioned the child's parents as being part of
22 that IEP process?
23 A. Those are the three basic.
24 Q. But there are others who are part of that IEP
25 process that ends up with a plan being developed, though,
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1 right?
2 A. Well, yeah. Well, we have, again, other diagnostic
3 personnel that would come, school counselors that would know
4 the child, but we also have -- recent years we've had a
5 growing number of cases where parents have insisted on
6 bringing advocates or lawyers into the setting or their
7 private provider of the child, whoever is providing very
8 specific kinds of services, so they are brought in for that
9 discussion.
10 Q. We'll get to that, sir. The initial process, as it
11 was developed and as it was implemented initially, did
12 involve other health providers, did it not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And these are other health providers that the state
15 provided for these students?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Initially. Now, you mentioned, though -- well, let
18 me get back to the process a little more, sir. My
19 understanding is that there's something called the --
20 presenting problems are identified; is that right?
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. And then a learning level is discussed, and then
23 methods of accomplishing things are discussed and ultimately
24 everyone agrees upon a plan?
25 A. That's right.
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1 Q. And the plan then goes out into the field and
2 they -- all the people involved attempt to implement and work
3 out the plan in a collegial way?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. Now, as this IEP process developed here in Hawaii
6 subsequent to the entering of the decree, though, are you
7 saying, sir, that the process then expanded and included
8 others?
9 A. Well, in -- not necessarily as a result of, but
10 also as a matter of fact because of the growing number of
11 lawsuits and what not, the need for mental health services,
12 we have had more and more advocates attending and private
13 providers attending those IEP meetings.
14 Q. Now, attorneys attending, so what you're saying is
15 that this collection of people who are attempting to work out
16 a plan for the child which included educators, mental health
17 providers, the student, of course, and the parents, you're
18 saying that then the parents insisted on having their
19 attorneys present in that process, in that meeting?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. And when the attorneys -- generally when the
22 attorneys were involved, did they have a say or actually take
23 part in the process itself?
24 A. Yes, many of them do, and again, unfortunately,
25 many of these meetings then turn out to be more contentious
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1 and more adversarial, so it becomes a long, drawn out
2 activity where there is insistence on certain kinds of
3 services to be continued or to be provided and there's a
4 great burden on the school people to try to either ascertain
5 or deny, you know, such services and then you have this long
6 drawn out kind of battle that goes on that oftentimes --
7 sometimes goes on for several meetings and hours, you know,
8 so it becomes a very burdensome activity for the school
9 people.
10 Q. Mr. Omura, is it your understanding and position
11 based on your knowledge of the IDEA and how it has developed
12 here and in other states that it was not intended that the
13 IEP process include attorneys at that level?
14 A. Well, not at the rate of what has been happening
15 recently. It has always allowed for attorneys to be there,
16 but this is to say it's never excluded them, and one of the
17 only conditions was that if one side were to bring attorneys,
18 then the other side was to be given the courtesy of bringing
19 their attorney, you know, that kind of stuff, so it lends to
20 a more confrontational issue.
21 Q. As you say, what happens is you change a process
22 that is intended to be collegial to one that becomes
23 adversarial?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. And there are other means that parents have, don't
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1 they, to seek their rights under what they believe to be
2 their rights under the law in, for example, due process
3 hearings, things of that nature?
4 A. So beyond IEP, if there's no satisfaction, then
5 they could go and request impartial hearing and then you have
6 an impartial hearing officer involved.
7 Q. What is your understanding, sir, in this IEP
8 process if in fact attorneys were requested by the parents
9 and the attorney did appear, who pays for these attorneys, do
10 you know?
11 A. Well, generally if it becomes a case that goes to
12 hearing, then the hearing process kicks in, yeah, and that's
13 where the cost for attorney's fees is part of the cost, but
14 if it's kept at the IEP level and it's merely at that level,
15 then the department is not obligated to pay for the attorneys
16 at that particular time.
17 Q. Now, when you mentioned private providers, will you
18 explain to us what you mean by a private provider being at
19 this IEP meeting and how that might affect the process?
20 A. Well, sometimes the parents would insist or request
21 that whoever is providing those set of services to that
22 particular child at that moment to also be present at the
23 meeting, and this might be a provider in the community who is
24 providing five hours of therapeutic work, you know, hours for
25 that child, and he would sit in -- he or she might sit in and
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1 insist that the child continues to have that service, you
2 know, so --
3 Q. Well, without necessarily looking into the intent
4 of these people, sir, what you're saying is that the private
5 providers are already treating the child?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. And are already being paid by the state for
8 treating that child?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. And what you're saying is that the personnel is
11 coming in and although the other experts in this process --
12 in this IEP process may say something else or may be of
13 another opinion, that the private provider would come in and
14 recommend treatment further where others may not believe that
15 should be the case?
16 A. That's right. And the stalemate would be where the
17 parent would not agree to any change in the IEP.
18 Q. What happens then, sir?
19 A. Then the stay-put clause, you know, would be kicked
20 in and will continue until some resolution is -- and some of
21 them would be drawn out for a year or more.
22 Q. How does this, if at all, sir, affect the people
23 who really count, the teachers, the special ed teachers?
24 A. Unfortunately, more and more as we're getting more
25 into this kind of contentious and disagreeable, shall we say,
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1 situation, the unfortunate thing is that the classroom
2 teacher or the counselor who knows -- who has a lot of
3 experience and who has worked with -- generally worked with
4 this type of children a lot, oftentimes their opinions are
5 not heard enough or they are overlooked and, again, I say we
6 have situations where other providers might insist on other
7 things, and at the end what will happen is that because it
8 will be a long, drawn out session, the teacher's opinions
9 will not be heard or undervalued and they often will just
10 give in and say okay, you know.
11 So what has been happening is that this is a common
12 thing that's been taking place recently where the schools no
13 longer contest all of these in the vigorous manner that they
14 probably could because basically they want to spend time
15 working with the kids directly and providing instructional
16 services and not attend those long, drawn out, very
17 contentious, and very heavy kind of meetings.
18 Q. So they -- what you're saying is based on your
19 years of experience working with them, the teachers just --
20 ultimately just give in?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. And therefore, what happens is their voice, their
23 opinions, then, are overlooked and undervalued?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. Now, what are the effects, long term and short
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1 term, of the special education teachers being placed in that
2 situation, not listened to, being beaten down to ultimately
3 having to give in because of the contentiousness of the
4 proceeding?
5 A. I think what has happened -- and this is very
6 apparent in the last two or three years, what's happened is
7 we're having more and more of this referral for clinical
8 therapeutic kinds of services just going directly outside
9 onto the community settings without the teachers really
10 trying to provide in school, in classroom kinds of
11 intervention, which would be something more meaningful and
12 more preventative, because oftentimes they get scolded for
13 wanting to provide some of this, and because the department
14 has been accused of under identifying, you know, kids and so
15 all of this put together has caused a climate where sometimes
16 the school people would prefer to just defer out, go out and
17 get the clinical services and continue to provide the
18 one-to-one therapy in the outside community and that they go
19 on with their work. Yeah.
20 Q. And you say this is occurring in situations where
21 it really is not merited?
22 A. Right. This is where sometimes those particular
23 services are not appropriate for whatever is the presenting
24 problem.
25 Q. Well, I think that's what you may have been
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1 referring to earlier, sir, about having questionable
2 therapeutic and clinical services being provided under the
3 IDEA?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. And give us some examples of that, sir, that you
6 can recall. You talked about the relative -- about the
7 baby-sitting. I brought up the matter of relatives being
8 brought in to baby-sit a child and being paid for, by the
9 way, by the state. Are there other such instances that
10 you're aware of?
11 A. Yeah, we know that oftentimes providers would
12 insist on providing, an opinion of the school people as well
13 as other evaluators, large number of hours of direct therapy
14 when it really doesn't require that, you know, like five
15 hours a week or whatever it might be, and sometimes it's
16 questionable on whether these actually are effective or not
17 or whether it's really meeting the heart of whatever
18 presenting problem the child might be having, and these are
19 very expensive because these are normally one-to-one types of
20 situations. So it might be abuse of that kind of services.
21 It's a matter of inappropriate services or services
22 to children and not necessarily benefitting the child's
23 education, such as sometimes from what we hear is that this
24 insistence that the parent or the mother be provided
25 long-term counseling, clinical intervention which -- and
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1 which may or may not even have a direct relationship to the
2 child's performance in school because apparently the mother
3 is unable to provide the care or, you know, supervision of
4 the kid. So some of those are there. And we know of cases
5 where one parent advocate had an older son to be the
6 therapeutic aide for the kid at $5,000 a month. You know, I
7 never made $60,000 until I was close to retirement, you know
8 what I mean.
9 So some of these things are -- I think we have to
10 really look at the manner in which they are made, the -- like
11 I said, the abuse that's going on, and it's not only -- the
12 system has allowed this to take place, and primarily it's
13 really to relieve themselves of an uncomfortable situation or
14 condition, so you move the problem away. Yeah.
15 Q. You mentioned, sir, providing therapy for a mother,
16 for example. Now, albeit a nobel purpose, I guess one can
17 say that giving the mother these services may allow the
18 mother, then, to be a better mother to the child and
19 therefore advance the education of the child, but am I to
20 understand that it is your opinion that that certainly wasn't
21 the intent of the IDEA?
22 A. That's right. That still is the responsibility of
23 the community of mental health. It's not an IDEA
24 responsibility.
25 Q. Certainly. And you mentioned these various things
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1 about a sibling being appointed a therapeutic aide and being
2 paid a large amount to provide care for that sibling's
3 brother or sister, right? You are you aware of that
4 happening? Have you heard of that happening?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. Have you heard of the system buying someone a car?
7 A. Yes. Several years ago I heard -- over I think it
8 was on the Big Island --
9 Q. Do you know what the circumstances --
10 A. -- related services calls for transportation, so
11 under the guise of -- related service also has transportation
12 in it as one of the services to be provided, so under the
13 guise of the child requiring transportation, they came out
14 and said we need to buy the parent a car because they had no
15 way of transporting the kid from here to there. So we've
16 also heard where parent's backyards were being fenced in
17 because -- you know, to provide whatever or the parent
18 boyfriend being hired as an aide for 20 hours a week, you
19 know, that kind of stuff.
20 Q. All of these things paid for by the state of
21 Hawaii?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. Now, you -- in your work as an educator, sir, you
24 know about research that has been done looking at situations
25 where students were taken out of the school setting and
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1 provided one-to-one therapy, you have read of those
2 situations in the past, have you not?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What was your understanding of the results of that
5 type of research?
6 A. I think empirical studies and recent research data
7 have more and more pointed out the fact that the traditional
8 medical therapeutic model of one-to-one therapy pull out from
9 the school setting is the least effective of all of the
10 various forms of strategies, and basically the form that --
11 which happens to be the most effective would be to try to
12 work with the child in a normal school setting as much as
13 possible within the normal parameters working directly with
14 whatever kinds of -- other kinds of skills development and
15 not necessarily one only addressing the psychiatric
16 requirements, you know, of the child.
17 So I think more and more research is showing that
18 and more and more studies and the ethicacy of certain kinds
19 of programs have been made, and I think what has -- is
20 happening is that more and more I think the people are
21 starting to realize that what the state has been forced into
22 in the past several years is really not working as they had
23 imagined. We have flooded the community with all of this
24 kind of request, the services have been coming in, but there
25 is, you know, questionable success rate.
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1 The good part about all of this is that as
2 Department of Education is now stressing more the CSSS, and
3 I'm sure some of the other people are familiar with some of
4 the things that we have been trying to get at, more
5 comprehensive student support delivery system as well as the
6 more recent school-based mental health delivery system which
7 is now being worked at, and Bob Campbell, I saw him there, is
8 trying to fine tune that. As we work on that, I think more
9 and more we're going to find less and less, hopefully, of
10 these referrals out for these very expensive and not too very
11 successful traditional kinds of intervention strategies.
12 Unfortunately, in the past several years, the
13 teachers have disengaged themselves from -- you know, from
14 this because they've been hit on the head too often, they've
15 been scolded, they've been badgered, and they've been told
16 that they are obstructionists or whatever it is. So the
17 trick would be for the department, hopefully, as we can get
18 teachers to reengage in this intervention, this in school
19 early intervention forms of activity so that we won't be
20 getting ourselves into this manner and only referring cases
21 out.
22 I'm not saying for some cases it's not appropriate.
23 It is. You still have appropriate types of long-term
24 therapeutic. Unfortunate thing is that if you look at the
25 kinds of kids that are being served for this, the bulk of the
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1 kids are not those kids who require long-term therapy. These
2 might be -- and if you study some of those, you have a whole
3 lot of what we call ADHD type cases, my goodness, and they're
4 providing long-term therapy for that or you might have --
5 many of them might have more behavioral types of problems
6 which may not even have any psychiatric condition or, you
7 know, emotional and many of them really -- conduct disorder
8 types which requires a different kind of intervention, but
9 yet they also receive, you know, this long extensive kind of
10 direct therapy.
11 So the fortunate thing is that as we are now
12 getting into school-based management, school-based mental
13 health services and -- the critical part is -- and as the DOE
14 is now gaining control and monitoring these contracts,
15 there's better oversight into what people are doing and what
16 they are claiming, and so with this oversight -- and this is
17 where I've always felt that one of the -- that caused this
18 was that we had within state government an agency, which is
19 DOE, which was held accountable for a set of services that
20 was provided by another agency, you know, and who had no
21 sense of accountability for meeting this federal requirement.
22 So as long as you had that -- but now that they're going to
23 have some of these services transferred to the department and
24 they are going to be held responsible for the administration
25 as well as accounting for the success of the services, I
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1 think we're going to have improvement in whatever is taking
2 place now.
3 Q. The other department you referred to was which one,
4 sir?
5 A. Traditionally DOH has been responsible for the
6 provision of mental health services.
7 Q. Is that what you were referring to when you said
8 that the Department of Education was providing one function
9 and another department was providing the mental health
10 function and that department wasn't accountable to the DOE?
11 A. No. Well, yeah, and wasn't accountable to meet the
12 IDEA requirements. See, IDEA is a DOE kind of requirement.
13 Q. Educational requirement?
14 A. Right, and meeting all of the federal mandates.
15 Q. You mentioned ADHC? You used an acronym. Do you
16 remember that?
17 A. Oh. Attention deficit disorder with hyperactivity.
18 Q. AD --
19 A. ADHD.
20 Q. ADHD, all right. Now, what you're saying is that
21 you have students who are diagnosed with that who may have
22 been just having mere behavioral problems, right?
23 A. Well, yeah, hyperactivity or whatever it might be.
24 Q. And they are being given treatment for that?
25 A. Well, the reason why I'm saying that is we know of
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1 cases where a child with a primary diagnosis of ADHD has been
2 sent for mainland institutional care and, again, some of this
3 is very alarming to us.
4 Q. What you're saying is that somebody believes that
5 we didn't have appropriate providers here in Hawaii for that
6 child?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And we do have such providers, do we not?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. And this type of situation, though, what you just
11 described, that does damage a child, too, the child's
12 development, does it not?
13 A. Well, yes, there's dislocation and separation of
14 the child.
15 Q. We're also providing, though, mental health
16 services to a child that doesn't really need it?
17 A. Right.
18 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Members, we've
19 been going just about an hour and, as you know, we must give
20 the court reporter a break once in a while, so we will be
21 taking a five-minute break, members. Back here at 10:35.
22 Thank you.
23 (Recess taken.)
24 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Members, we'll
25 reconvene. We'll continue with the questioning by
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1 Mr. Kawashima.
2 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Thank you, Madam
3 Chair.
4 Q. Mr. Omura, let me move to another area. You by
5 virtue of your position as the point person for Felix from
6 1995, you became acquainted with the court monitor, Mr. Ivor
7 Groves?
8 A. Yes, we met.
9 Q. What is your understanding as to where Dr. Groves
10 came from?
11 A. I understand he came from Florida.
12 Q. And what is your understanding as to what he was
13 doing in Florida prior to being appointed court monitor?
14 A. Well, we understood that he was within the
15 administration of the Florida mental health division, the
16 state, you know, division.
17 Q. State of Florida mental health division?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. Yes?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What is your understanding also, Mr. Omura, of in
22 what state or condition Florida was at the time Dr. Groves
23 left Florida to become court monitor here in Hawaii? How was
24 Florida rated amongst the states at that time?
25 A. How was Florida rated? As I recall, at that
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1 particular time when Dr. Groves came over or when he left, I
2 think Florida was rated as one of the worst states in the
3 provision of mental health services.
4 Q. Now, Dr. Groves uses as court monitor -- well,
5 strike that.
6 Dr. Groves uses a service testing instrument to
7 measure compliance with the Felix decree, does he not?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you have familiarity with that instrument?
10 A. Yes, some because we sat with he and Ray Foster,
11 who is the chief, I guess, editor and we met with both of
12 them and myself with a few other of us, including
13 Mr. Yamamoto, myself and a few other DOE people to discuss
14 the service testing instrument or the creation of it in
15 itself.
16 Q. Mr. Foster, you used the title frame ,editor you
17 say?
18 A. No, I'm just -- for want of a better handle, he was
19 a consultant to develop the --
20 Q. All right. Can you explain to us, sir, the
21 methodology used with service testing?
22 A. Basically service testing, as developed by
23 Dr. Groves and Ray Foster, is a case study method of
24 reviewing those kids identified in the Felix class, and the
25 kids were supposed to be selected randomly -- random
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1 selection for review with a certain percentage, and the
2 review process was to look at the status of services that the
3 kids were receiving and how effective they were, and so it
4 was to look at the direct services to the child and how they
5 were performing, as well as a study of the delivery system
6 that was required. By delivery system, meaning all of the
7 support systems which were supposed to be in place, including
8 not only education but health, CPS, family court, and that
9 whole array of support that was needed for the child to
10 function and to improve, so this -- it measured -- you had a
11 rating scale, you had so many items developed and they -- you
12 had people going out interviewing the child, the parents, the
13 school people and other private providers and trying to gain
14 some assessment of the various areas that they were looking
15 at and providing some kind of rating from one to six as to
16 what they thought to be the level of satisfaction, let's say.
17 You have large number of areas that were looked at.
18 Q. All right. Now, you have knowledge, sir, of this
19 service testing instrument that was being used here and how
20 it was developed?
21 A. Well, yes.
22 Q. Tell us what your knowledge is of that.
23 A. At the very beginning, like again, I say, we met
24 with Dr. Groves and Ray Foster and we sat down with -- when
25 we knew that the service testing model was going to be -- the
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1 methodology, so we sat down, we tried to ensure that
2 certain -- the parameters of concerns were identified. We
3 tried to identify the array of services that hopefully they
4 would need to assess to give a fair and balanced look at the
5 kinds of -- the delivery capacity of the schools as well as
6 the entire system. So we tried to develop not only the areas
7 but also some of the items that we felt were necessary to be
8 looked at.
9 Q. And am I to understand that there were meetings,
10 then, initially between state of Hawaii Department of
11 Education personnel and Foster?
12 A. Yeah, we met --
13 Q. And Dr. Groves also?
14 A. And Dr. Groves on numerous occasions at their
15 place, at their office.
16 Q. To go --
17 A. To go over, review, refine some of the things and
18 structure some of the -- again, I said the instrument, not
19 the actual final product per se, but you have to remember
20 this was the initial stages, so at that time it was merely
21 interested in ensuring that the certain arena -- let's say
22 the arena of looking at evaluation activities were well
23 represented, let's put it that way, so it would be fair to
24 the schools as well as fair to the classroom teachers as well
25 as the service providers.
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1 Q. I see. So in other words, you did tell them the
2 different areas that really they should look at in developing
3 this instrument, right?
4 A. We contributed to that discussion.
5 Q. And then you also told them that if they were going
6 to attempt to measure performance, they ought to look at some
7 certain areas that would benefit the child and be fair, as
8 you say, to the teachers and everyone else involved?
9 A. Yes, we tried to do that.
10 Q. And to some degree, although you said you did not
11 put together the final product, though, you did give input
12 with some degree of specificity as to what should be included
13 in that final product, though, did you not?
14 A. Well, I don't want to say specificity, but
15 general -- the design and general outcomes that we wanted to
16 look at, and, you know, the items -- the actual specificity
17 of those actual questions they worked on eventually, yeah.
18 Q. So what happened, then, after these meetings took
19 place, Mr. Omura, with Mr. Foster and Dr. Groves? What
20 happened in terms of what product came out of it?
21 A. Well, after so many meetings, eventually, you know,
22 the thing got put together and it evolved after so many
23 meetings, it grows. And again, to our surprise and dismay, I
24 guess, we found that, you know, they were copyrighting the
25 product that they were developing. So that took place, but
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1 again, we felt that that was the prerogative of the monitor
2 and his contracted consultant.
3 Q. Wait, now. When you say copyrighting it, what do
4 you mean by that?
5 A. Well, at the bottom of each page, you know, there's
6 a statement or logo that says copyright, whatever it was, and
7 I don't know exactly what is stated, but it had a copyright
8 statement underneath on all the pages. Yeah.
9 Q. Did you later learn that this instrument that was
10 developed was in fact copyrighted?
11 A. This is what I understand, right.
12 Q. And when you say copyrighted -- well, this
13 instrument, you're talking about the product of the meetings
14 you had -- many meetings you had being placed into a written
15 form and then into a testing instrument? You're saying that
16 what you are seeing now, though, coming back by Mr. Foster,
17 including the ideas that you from the Department of Education
18 provided, was an instrument that apparently was going to be
19 copyrighted; is that correct?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. And copyrighted under a name that did not belong to
22 the state of Hawaii?
23 A. No, that's right.
24 Q. And do you know if the department of the attorney
25 general had any requirements as to this type of copyrighting
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1 and whether or not benefits should enure to the state of
2 Hawaii?
3 A. No. It never occurred to me to -- as an issue.
4 Q. By the way, what's your understanding as to whether
5 or not Mr. Foster was being paid to develop this interest?
6 A. Well, I presume he was contracted by the Felix
7 monitor contract to be a consultant for the development of
8 the service testing instrument and that's why he was there.
9 He had numerous meetings with different people and trying to
10 pull that, you know, instrument together.
11 Q. So Mr. Foster was being paid by the state of Hawaii
12 to develop something that he copyrighted for himself, is that
13 the ultimate result of that?
14 A. I guess if you consider the Felix monitoring
15 project as being part of the state of Hawaii, you know, yes.
16 Q. Well, you do understand that all of the costs,
17 expenses coming out the Felix monitoring project are being
18 paid by the state of Hawaii?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. You do also know that Mr. Foster and Mr. Groves
21 have a company that have taken this instrument we're talking
22 about and sold it to other states and organizations?
23 A. Yes, I have been informed of that recently. I was
24 not aware of it while I was still employed.
25 Q. And you understand that this instrument, then, that
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1 was developed and perhaps claimed to be validated in the
2 state of Hawaii is being sold to other states by this company
3 that you say is owned by Mr. Foster and Mr. Groves, among
4 others?
5 A. Probably they did have to do that, you know, to
6 claim proper sampling of the population and validity and
7 reliability.
8 Q. Do you know if in the developing of this product,
9 sir, whether Mr. Groves and Mr. Foster were being paid by the
10 state of Hawaii and at what rates?
11 A. As consultants, my understanding, and this is what
12 I was informed, was that the consultants were paid in a range
13 between $1,000 to $2,000 on a daily basis.
14 Q. Each one of them?
15 A. Each.
16 Q. Now, the concept, though, behind service testing
17 was that the schools would be tested in a number of areas to
18 see if the schools were providing the necessary services
19 under the IDEA; is that correct?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. And did the standards, though, for this service
22 testing we're talking about, did they ever change?
23 A. The level of --
24 Q. As to the level of compliance, for example.
25 A. Yes, from --
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1 Q. How did it change?
2 A. From the initial stages when we first were trying
3 to field test some of those things, he -- Dr. Groves
4 initially declared that the passing scores would be 70, and
5 then subsequent to that, after, I guess, the trial and early
6 implementation of it, the passing score was raised to 85.
7 So, you know, in that sense it was changed.
8 Q. How about who was to do the testing, was that
9 aspect of the service testing process changed also?
10 A. Yeah, we -- you had service testers, so-called, who
11 were selected -- well, basically in the initial stages you
12 had volunteers from the various agencies, you know,
13 government service people, initially no one from DOE because
14 it was carried out by all the other people, and they received
15 training and -- so-called, on the methodology and how to go
16 about carrying it out.
17 Q. Now, you mentioned -- you testified a few minutes
18 ago that initially the compliance percentage was 70 percent
19 and then Dr. Groves announced it was going to be 85 percent;
20 is that correct?
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. Did he explain why he was unilaterally increasing
23 the compliance rate to 85 percent?
24 A. No. I do not recall any statistical reason, you
25 know, no reason for using whatever coefficient -- reliability
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1 coefficient kinds of --
2 Q. What was the result of this, sir, though, in other
3 words, changing the compliance rate from 70 to 85 percent in
4 terms of the schools and the teachers?
5 A. Your question about -- you know, was there changes
6 in the service testing requirements, besides the change in
7 the stand -- the bar, raising the bar from 70 to 85, they
8 came in and subsequently required that all service testing --
9 schools going through service testing must now show a
10 reading -- school reading program, that they have to show its
11 design and how it's meeting the needs of all of the kids, et
12 cetera, et cetera, and this was, again, outside of -- well,
13 in my opinion, from the original issue, which was lack of
14 provision of mental health services.
15 So now it appears that what is happening was that
16 they were measuring the effectiveness of the DOE delivery
17 system, the school as a system, rather than meeting some
18 educational needs, so that became an added requirement. They
19 in addition to that, after some of the schools passed, then
20 they were required to provide a compliance report with --
21 where administrators would have to sit in front of a panel of
22 judges to -- and try to convince them that they indeed had a
23 workable system in the school that met all of the service
24 requirements demanded by Felix.
25 Having passed that, then an additional 18 months of
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1 monitoring was stacked onto that. So you had all of these
2 added on that came on and it was -- the problem was much of
3 this was not clearly spelled out at the very onset of the
4 service testing activity, so there was no clear expectation
5 as to what was demanded of the schools in order to pass the
6 so-called service test.
7 Q. What you say is that if the state paid these people
8 to develop a testing instrument, that from the outset it
9 should have had specific guidelines that the schools could
10 follow; is that correct?
11 A. Well, the service testing is merely a means of
12 getting that kind of data, but besides that activity in
13 itself, the collection of all the other related information
14 and how they pull it together in a composite, you know,
15 report and what the expectations were were never clearly
16 spelled out. Let's put it that way.
17 Q. I've heard the phrase moving target used more than
18 once in these proceedings, Mr. Omura. Was it your
19 understanding that the schools, the Department of Education
20 was attempting to get more specific information from
21 Dr. Groves and Mr. Foster?
22 A. I think even while I was still employed, yeah, this
23 was a constant request that we were making. We wanted, you
24 know, more specificity in the expectations so that we could
25 in turn go back to the schools and say this is what we need
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1 to accomplish, so, you know, we can go along in trying to do
2 certain things.
3 Q. Was -- were requests made of the monitor,
4 Dr. Groves, to provide that type of guidance in writing?
5 A. I don't know whether we had put it in writing as
6 far as that request, but all I know is that we had voiced
7 that concern a number of times to Dr. Groves directly.
8 Q. What I meant was in writing back to --
9 A. Yeah, I know that's what you said, but what I'm
10 saying is we failed to put it in writing also, so that we did
11 not get a written -- a lack of written response to say that
12 he did not respond, yeah.
13 Q. Now, you already testified, sir, that initially
14 there were no clear and simple guidelines for the schools to
15 follow to comply; is that correct?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. You also testified, I think, a few minutes ago that
18 these complaints that came from the schools up to your level
19 were then communicated to Dr. Groves?
20 A. That's right, as much as we could convey them in,
21 you know, the good spirit -- in the spirit of trying to help
22 facilitate, you know, the ease of that activity in itself.
23 Q. Now, for example, were you aware of complaints that
24 the samples that were being tested as part of the testing
25 process by Dr. Groves, these samples were not random samples
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1 as you testified earlier they should have been?
2 A. Yes. We have heard complaints from the schools and
3 the complexes that some of the cases which were randomly
4 selected happened to have been often the worst cases or the
5 most complicated, and so there was always this nagging
6 question of whether they were in fact randomly selected.
7 Q. What result might you have, sir, if you have a
8 system that is supposed to be random in terms of selecting
9 students and samples but instead chooses the most difficult,
10 I've heard the word or phrase high end cases being chosen,
11 what does that result in?
12 A. You're going to get a higher level of failures in
13 that -- so your bar of 85 will never be reached, you know.
14 You'll be lucky to be at 40 or 30 or whatever of the cases
15 because oftentimes the failure was not necessarily a result
16 of the lack of the school's effort, but oftentimes a failure
17 on the part of other agencies to provide services or -- so
18 the inability to control or to demand that kind of
19 collaboration was not there.
20 Q. How about complaints, sir, about that sample size
21 that obviously was not random, but that sample size being too
22 small also?
23 A. Yeah, I'd say obviously we did have concerns being
24 expressed that the smaller the sample, the greater the chance
25 of failure because, you know, if you fail in two, three and
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1 if your sampling is small, so obviously there was -- well,
2 lack of appreciation for what I called sampling technique and
3 statistical integrity.
4 Q. How about complaints, Mr. Omura, about the testers
5 involved with the testing program? Were there complaints
6 about the testers and the methodology that these testers
7 used?
8 A. Yes, initially, again, when you say we had a whole
9 bunch of people who were not familiar with the system, the
10 problem was in spite of whatever training was provided by the
11 monitoring activity, they did not understand the school
12 culture, for one, they didn't understand evaluation
13 information, they didn't understand the data that was
14 imbedded in some of those, they -- because they probably were
15 not familiar with the provision of services, they were not
16 able to ask the appropriate questions to elicit, you know,
17 appropriate kinds of responses which might have aided in a
18 better understanding of the services which were being
19 provided. So we had all of this. One example is that we
20 heard that, for example, one service tester was -- voiced
21 concern that how come the kids' stanine scores did not go up
22 from, you know, this to this in subsequent -- not
23 understanding the stanine score data itself or the testing
24 data. So, you know, you have some of that kind of stuff
25 which compound the understanding of the situation.
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1 Q. Now, were these testers being paid, by the way, for
2 their work?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And who selected these testers?
5 A. Basically was the Felix monitoring office.
6 Q. Now, would it be fair to say, then, Mr. Omura, that
7 the many changes to the service testing standards made by
8 Dr. Groves, the questions as to the randomness and the number
9 of the test samples and the questions about the testers and
10 their questions all contributed to the overall length of time
11 it has taken for the schools to come into compliance?
12 A. Probably so, especially at the initial stages where
13 we had all the inexperience, you know, of people who could
14 probably have been better prepared to go in, and of course,
15 that compounded the fact that we still had an existing
16 problem with the lack of consistent mental health services.
17 So whenever, you know, you go in, no matter what you do, if
18 you don't have the services, you're always going to fail.
19 Q. Now, as far as you know, though, did Dr. Groves
20 provide any explanation as to why all these changes were
21 necessary?
22 A. I think we all recognized that the know-how and
23 skill necessary for the administration of the service testing
24 activity itself was an evolving, you know, thing, so we
25 recognized that so, you know, they are getting better. They
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1 have developed a better level of skills in what they are
2 looking for and how to ask questions and things of that
3 nature.
4 Q. I guess what you're also saying, Mr. Omura, is that
5 this service testing instrument developed by the company
6 owned by at least Dr. Groves and Mr. Foster was being
7 refined, was it not?
8 A. I guess you might say that.
9 Q. Now, did the Felix monitoring project bring in
10 trainers from the mainland?
11 A. For a whole variety of other reasons, not
12 necessarily service testing.
13 Q. No, not necessarily -- I'm sorry, I'm moving to
14 another area.
15 A. Yes. Throughout the early stages Dr. Groves
16 brought in a number of trainers or consultants that provided
17 training activities for DOE people or DOH.
18 Q. Was Mr. Foster one of these people?
19 A. Well, I only remember him more directly in line
20 with the service testing activity.
21 Q. Now, to your knowledge, though, being as closely
22 involved as you were with the compliance with Felix and being
23 the DOE point person at least from 1995, do you know if
24 Dr. Groves attempted to recruit and enlist local talent to
25 assist in the training we're talking about?
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1 A. Not to my knowledge. I don't know of any that he
2 had tapped for direct training activities or direct consult
3 to people.
4 Q. As far as you were concerned, though, with your
5 experience and knowledge of the people here, were there
6 people available locally who could have provided the same
7 training that Dr. Groves would bring in mainland people to
8 do?
9 A. Definitely. Maybe better.
10 Q. Do you know why only mainland trainers were used?
11 A. No, not necessarily, because I don't know what was
12 in his head, but there was a general feeling expressed by him
13 that he did not feel that there was local expertise around.
14 Q. And you differed greatly with him on that one at
15 that point, did you not?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So how, then, were these mainland trainers used?
18 A. Well, generally they came in maybe one week or a
19 couple days, one or two sessions and then left.
20 Q. And they were paid, were they not?
21 A. I presume so.
22 Q. They were paid not only for their time but all of
23 their expenses to travel here to Hawaii and back and to live
24 here while they were doing their training?
25 A. Generally that would be the procedure.
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1 Q. Now, let me talk about another area, sir. When you
2 were working on the IDEA with the Department of Education and
3 working on the Felix decree, you were also involved, sir,
4 with discussions with members of the legislature on
5 appropriations for various special education programs, were
6 you not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And generally was the legislature receptive to the
9 programs that you and the department were pushing?
10 A. Yes. The years that I used to meet with the
11 significant members, you know, members of committees that had
12 major impact on the funding for DOE, Felix, Felix-related
13 services as well as special ed services, in my opinion the
14 legislators made every effort to fund as fully as possible
15 what was required within the budgetary constraints that they
16 had. So your question is yes, I was generally pleased with
17 the kind of support that we received.
18 Q. They obviously had questions, though?
19 A. Yes, we had to justify, we had to explain what we
20 were trying to do, but again, as long as we went in and
21 showed that these were related to some of the Felix plans
22 that we had, you know, we matched them up with the early
23 intervention, the preventative, the ongoing kind of services
24 as well as special education, at risk, and we were able to
25 associate and connect our request to all of these
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1 requirements that we went to court and said we were going to
2 do, you know, and so as far as I can recall, the legislature
3 has -- was very supportive.
4 Q. And that legislature did provide the funding that
5 was requested?
6 A. Yes. Even after I left I continued to check on
7 some of my, you know, long-term requests and eventually they
8 all got funded.
9 Q. And we don't necessarily need to attribute blame,
10 sir, but if anyone were to attempt to blame the legislature
11 for problems with bringing the schools into compliance, based
12 on your experience and knowledge, can the legislature be
13 blamed -- properly blamed for any of these problems?
14 A. I don't think so. Basically it's the delivery
15 capacity of administration, you know, the program
16 administrators and the programs that exist, so --
17 Q. Now, we earlier -- I earlier asked you some
18 questions about the IDEA and its focus and how the -- I
19 believe you gave testimony as to how the Felix consent decree
20 was broader -- was being interpreted to be broader than the
21 IDEA. Do you recall that testimony?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you believe at the present time that the state
24 of Hawaii and the Department of Education has satisfied the
25 requirements of the IDEA?
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1 A. Yes. I feel basically that our system and our
2 schools are basically in compliance with IDEA requirements.
3 We may have, you know, violations here and there, but as a
4 whole we are in compliance.
5 Q. If we're using -- if we're using 85 percent on a
6 state-wide basis, is it your understanding that the state is
7 in compliance with the IDEA?
8 A. IDEA, yes.
9 Q. Now, earlier in this process, sir, we received
10 testimony -- sworn testimony from Dr. Houck of the DOE, whom
11 you know, who testified that on a state-wide basis the state
12 had complied with the consent decree. Do you agree with that
13 statement?
14 A. Yes, generally I think as a whole we are in
15 compliance. So if not all, we're near that.
16 Q. By the way, Hawaii is unique in the sense that it
17 has a state-wide system of public education, is it not?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that no
20 other state in the country --
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. -- has a system as ours where it is a state-wide
23 system of public education?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. They have various districts and divisions and
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1 whatever it might be, but no one else has a system like ours
2 where you have a state-wide system, especially where you have
3 such divergent geographical requirements; is that correct?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Now, initially the 85 percent requirement,
6 understandingly moved from 70 to 85, was being looked at on a
7 state-wide basis, was it not?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Initially?
10 A. Yeah, at the very onset.
11 Q. At some point, though, the focus was changed from
12 state-wide to complex by complex, was it not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Who made that change?
15 A. I don't recall, but it probably was after
16 discussion of being able to target in on certain school
17 complexes, certain areas which may have had, due to the lack
18 of, you know, services, a greater difficulty in receiving
19 those services. So if you have enough of them pulling down
20 the whole state, then it would be -- automatically the whole
21 state would not pass. So it probably was a better
22 arrangement -- administrative arrangement to look at it in
23 that way, and then the state system could concentrate and
24 zero in on certain complexes that did show great need for
25 certain kinds of support.
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1 Q. Good. One last area, sir. In light of everything
2 you've testified to, in light of all your experience in this
3 area of special education and the IDEA, do you have any
4 thoughts on ways that the state can better ensure that
5 Felix-related expenditures are not wasted?
6 A. Well, the activity of this particular legislative
7 committee, this joint senate-house investigative committee, I
8 think sometimes is necessary to bring checks and balances to
9 the delivery of critical services or issues which are very
10 critical to the community, but not only does it bring
11 awareness, but I think it also -- what has happened is it has
12 educated the public to the issues of Felix to a different
13 level. Rather than being merely an issue between the
14 judge -- the federal judge and the plaintiff lawyers and the
15 defendant and what not, I think the review by a third branch
16 of government such as this, yeah, you know, is healthy every
17 so often.
18 I don't think you want to do it all the time,
19 minding everybody else's business all the time, but I think
20 every so often it is required if there is a degree of
21 uncertainty as to the validity of what people claim is
22 happening out there, and obviously this would not have
23 happened -- this committee would not have happened if
24 singularly -- I think you folks individually had not heard
25 complaints from the field, let's put it that way. I'm pretty
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1 sure that's the reason why this investigative committee was
2 formed, so it is serving as a vehicle for that purpose and I
3 think it's healthy.
4 Q. In your opinion, would this improve the delivery of
5 services?
6 A. Yes, definitely.
7 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Thank you. I have
8 no further questions, Madam Chair.
9 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you very
10 much. Members, we will institute the five-minute rule.
11 We'll begin with Vice-Chair Kokubun, followed by Vice-Chair
12 Oshiro.
13 VICE-CHAIR SENATOR KOKUBUN: Thank you, Madam
14 Co-Chair.
15 EXAMINATION
16 BY CO-CHAIR SENATOR KOKUBUN:
17 Q. Mr. Omura, I just had a couple questions about the
18 attorney general's role in much of this. We talked about the
19 copyright issue for the service testing, and evidently there
20 was no question raised by either the Department of Education
21 or the attorney general's office with respect to that issue?
22 A. Yes, probably out of our own naiveness on our part.
23 Q. But nevertheless, the attorney general was serving
24 the department and advising you all in terms of the consent
25 decree and how to comply with that, correct?
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1 A. I don't think we ever presented that as an issue.
2 That's another thing, yeah, so that's just an oversight on
3 everybody's part.
4 Q. You also mentioned the fact that, you know, it
5 was -- the IEPs and the appeals of the IEPs became quite
6 burdensome and after a while it seemed, in your opinion, I
7 guess, that the teachers began to acquiesce to the demands of
8 the plaintiff attorneys, et cetera. And what was the AG's
9 role in that particular scenario?
10 A. Well, upon request -- and, again, you have to go
11 back. There's a sequence of level of services that we
12 receive from the office of the attorney general. Just
13 recently they received additional positions, you know, to
14 help serve the department, but prior to that you have to
15 remember that we were lucky if we had three active, you know,
16 deputy attorney generals serving the department. So
17 oftentimes they were very burdened and did not have the time
18 to go out and provide the kind of support that the schools
19 wanted. And well, unfortunately, the recommendations that
20 came down was oftentimes to give whatever they were asking.
21 Q. Is that the recommendation from the attorney
22 general's office?
23 A. Generally a lot of times, from what we got.
24 Q. Did that affect the morale of the teachers trying
25 to provide -- or the administrators and/or staff of DOE that
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1 were trying to provide the services?
2 A. Definitely. That's the reason why after a while
3 school people gave up contesting these cases because they
4 knew they weren't going to get legal support from our people,
5 so -- and even if they wanted to contest some of these cases,
6 they were scolded. So the unfortunate thing was it came to a
7 point where people did not want to cause additional -- did
8 not want to engage in additional issues and they wanted to
9 just, you know, make things go, yeah, and at the expense of
10 determining whether these were appropriate or not, and
11 oftentimes the school people did not feel these were
12 appropriate or required. So yes, it did cause definite
13 morale problems at the school. Again, it caused a climate
14 of -- where people just started to give everything what they
15 wanted.
16 Q. I think your testimony also indicated that, you
17 know, this moving target that was created by these appeals as
18 well as, you know, the changes in the service testing
19 instrument was tough on the schools as well?
20 A. That's right, because they had to come up with the
21 reports, yeah.
22 Q. Did the attorney general or the DOE administration
23 have a role in or an authority to agree or disagree with
24 these changes in the service testing instrument?
25 A. Well, if they were court ordered, then definitely
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1 the AG would have a say at the development of the plan or the
2 submittal of the report to the court, you know, in order for
3 the judge to have declared certain kinds of administrative
4 mandates to be added. So in that sense, yes, the attorney
5 general's office did have involvement, but when it came to
6 merely administrative changes in deadlines and style and
7 inclusion, all that kind of stuff, then generally they may
8 not have been, you know, involved or known of this because
9 oftentimes these may have been decided unilaterally between
10 the monitor or, you know, with some other DOE official, yeah.
11 Q. I would imagine that as a consent decree which is
12 constantly being offered as a justification for this order is
13 that the state agrees basically with these changes. Do you
14 have any input on that? And I'm particularly interested in
15 the change from 70 percent compliant to 85 percent compliant.
16 That seems to be such a --
17 A. That was never part of the consent decree in
18 itself. It was just part of a -- an administrative -- it was
19 an administrative decision on the part of the monitor to say
20 that the passing grade would be such-and-such, so it wasn't
21 imbedded in the court order.
22 Q. I see. So the monitor had the latitude to make, in
23 your opinion, that change from 70 to 85 percent?
24 A. Yes, he took the privilege of making that.
25 Q. But nevertheless, it still didn't preclude the
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1 state from raising concerns about the change; is that
2 correct?
3 A. Well, you can grumble all you like, but after a
4 while --
5 Q. It's done, it's pau?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Omura.
8 VICE-CHAIR SENATOR KOKUBUN: Thank you, Madam
9 Chair.
10 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Vice-Chair Oshiro,
11 followed by Senator Buen.
12 VICE-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE OSHIRO: Thank you,
13 Co-Chair Hanabusa.
14 EXAMINATION
15 BY VICE-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE OSHIRO:
16 Q. I just have a few questions also for clarification.
17 Particularly I think I recall you saying that at a certain
18 point you folks started meeting over the service testing
19 instrument to sort of refine it and develop it further and
20 there were several meetings between yourself, other DOE
21 administrators, Mr. Foster, and Dr. Groves; is that correct?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. But I also recall you saying that these meetings
24 sort of started once you knew that this was the methodology
25 that was going to be used. By whose directive did it come
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1 down that this would be the methodology?
2 A. The monitor.
3 Q. So even though the actual methodology was not yet
4 finalized or particularly refined, it was still designated as
5 this would be the way that we're going?
6 A. Yes. Service testing was a novel, it was a new
7 science, and, you know, we -- no one knew exactly what it
8 represented or what it would require, so -- and yes, it was a
9 learning, evolving set of skills that everybody acquired,
10 yeah, and knowledge.
11 Q. And how many meetings or hours of time would you
12 estimate that it took to actually come up with what, in your
13 involvement anyway, was near the final product?
14 A. I am not aware. I cannot recall, but we had
15 several meetings, but I'm sure subsequent to that there were
16 much, much, you know, more meetings and more time spent to
17 refine it, to check out the language and, you know, cross
18 check the items with different sections and what not.
19 Q. But by the end I think you said that you were -- I
20 think the words you that used were surprised and dismayed
21 that the actual service testing instrument came out with a
22 copyright on it; is that right?
23 A. Yes, because I never anticipated that this was
24 going to be a private copyrighted --
25 Q. Endeavor?
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1 A. -- thing, yeah.
2 Q. So in all of the times that you did attend those
3 meetings, there was never any discussion about intellectual
4 property rights or things to that effect, it was more just
5 refining the whole realm or concept that you said was sort of
6 novel?
7 A. School people are naive and trusting, yeah, us, we
8 go in and that's us. That's why we get people make money off
9 us.
10 Q. I just wanted to get one more clarification. I
11 think earlier when Mr. Kawashima was questioning you you had
12 said something to the effect that there are times when
13 services are being provided that are beyond the educational
14 realm, and particularly you cited examples of therapeutic
15 aides or respite care. I just wanted to get some
16 clarification. I mean, I don't think -- am I correct in
17 assuming that you're not denying that there is some
18 therapeutic benefit that may be provided, but essentially
19 what you're questioning is how it falls under the realm of
20 education rather than purely therapy; is that correct?
21 A. Yes. What I was trying to convey was that it was
22 not an IDEA responsibility.
23 Q. Because by looking, as you said, at other states at
24 what they are doing to comply with IDEA, there are certain
25 services that are generally provided as, quote, education but
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1 yet because we're under the Felix consent decree and it's
2 expanded in such a way that we're providing some services
3 that aren't really, quote/unquote, education; is that
4 correct?
5 A. Educationally -- they are not educationally related
6 or provided for the benefit of the educational need of the
7 child.
8 VICE-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE OSHIRO: Thank you
9 very much.
10 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you.
11 Senator Buen, followed by Representative Ito.
12 SENATOR BUEN: Thank you.
13 EXAMINATION
14 BY SENATOR BUEN:
15 Q. Mr. Omura, there's the large expenditure that
16 Mr. Kawashima had talked about and you were saying there's
17 large expenditure outside the realm of educational benefit to
18 the special education children, and is this done through the
19 IEP process? Are these services provided outside the realm
20 of educational -- the DOE? Is this through the -- through
21 the IEP process?
22 A. That's a good question you're asking. Technically
23 the decision should be made at that IEP as to what would be
24 appropriate and necessary, but sometimes the decision is
25 made -- and remember, now, we have care coordinators on the
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1 scene, and sometimes the care coordinators will pull all the
2 different requests in and it will be -- a decision will be
3 made outside of the IEP meeting that, yes, we're going to
4 give client A, whatever it might be, 20 hours of respite, you
5 know, per week or so many hours of baby-sitting, and that
6 decision may or may not be made at the IEP meeting.
7 Sometimes it's done outside.
8 Q. So who makes that decision to provide that service?
9 A. Like I said, many times the care coordinator will
10 make that request to whatever authorizing administrator, the
11 health department or whatever.
12 Q. So does the attorney general approve the cost?
13 A. Yeah, those have to be approved because the
14 expenditure by the DOH, they have to follow their guide, you
15 know, expenditure items and they've got to associate that
16 with certain activity and what not. So it's sent up for
17 administrative approval. I don't know what level.
18 Q. And you mentioned about the respite services,
19 siblings, and maybe aunties and uncles provide respite
20 service for the parents and they are paid by the state?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And approved by the attorney general?
23 A. No, not approved by the attorney general, but
24 approved by --
25 Q. But the payment is approved by the attorney
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1 general?
2 A. No, not at that time.
3 Q. Who approves that payment?
4 A. Well, eventually the payment -- all of the payment
5 is approved by the AG for the contracts to be, you know, sent
6 out, but approval for that kind of contract is lodged at
7 the -- whatever level that decision is made, normally the
8 family guidance center or whoever made that. DOE itself --
9 see, we do not have the capacity to provide respite services
10 and that is not our function because that's very clearly
11 providing services to the parents, but one of the problems is
12 that, you know, because of the expanded interpretation and
13 the expanded requirements of Felix and the demands and they
14 are saying that Felix is beyond IDEA, you know, so I'm sure
15 you folks heard that quite often made, so a comment to that
16 would be following sets of requests that come long, such as
17 respite and all that stuff.
18 Q. You also mentioned that in this -- that there's an
19 abuse and the system has allowed for this to take place.
20 What do you mean the system has allowed for this to take
21 place? Can you expand on that a bit?
22 A. Well, the system's made of people, yeah, be it DOE
23 or DOH, people are making that decision, and I'm not saying
24 those people are ivory pure too, because some of them roll
25 over and agree to it rather than fight it, so that's the
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1 reason why I'm saying the system, meaning all of us, school
2 people, providers, we're caught in this quagmire.
3 Q. My last question is this continuing -- is this
4 abuse, if you call it abuse, continuing today?
5 A. As I have indicated, I see recently when we have --
6 going into school-based services for mental health where --
7 and the transfer of the contract oversight has been
8 transferred to the DOE and the school people are on top of it
9 and now you get -- you have the school people who know
10 exactly when provider A or B or C is showing up, and they
11 know that no, no, no, you're not going today because we
12 didn't see you, this kind of stuff, yeah, because we have now
13 that greater capacity to monitor whether in fact some of
14 those -- these providers are providing service what they
15 claim to be and whatever feeling they have. So in that sense
16 it is improving. There's greater monitoring over what we
17 feel to be appropriate set of services as determined by
18 whatever contracts in the IEP -- the RFPs that they came out
19 with, so the answer is yes, I see and I foresee in the future
20 greater expectation for successful implementation.
21 SENATOR BUEN: Thank you. Thank you,
22 Mr. Omura.
23 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Represent Ito,
24 followed by Senator Matsuura.
25 REPRESENTATIVE ITO: Thank you very much,
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1 Madam Co-Chair.
2 EXAMINATION
3 BY REPRESENTATIVE ITO:
4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Omura. Thank you for coming.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. Almost afternoon. Anyway, Mr. Omura, you know,
7 during your tenure with the DOE, did you find any frustration
8 working with the Department of Health, the working
9 relationship?
10 A. Gee, that goes beyond Felix, yeah? I don't know
11 whether it's fair to -- but yes, in my years at the district
12 supervising, in charge of special services, in charge of
13 school health services, in charge of all those that we need
14 to collaborate, there were instances.
15 Q. Do you see any improvement right now?
16 A. Sir, you are asking a question to a guy who firmly
17 believes that certain kinds of services should be lodged
18 within the DOE, and one of them is school health services.
19 Q. School-based mental health?
20 A. Correct, but not only school-based but also school
21 health services to be properly lodged within DOE so we can do
22 better monitoring and supervision of services which directly
23 affect all kids. It doesn't have to be only special ed. So
24 I've always been -- from the onset of when we created the
25 school health branch and health aides and what not -- and I
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1 don't know whether some of you have been around long enough
2 when Dr. Murdock was first appointed to the school physician.
3 See, prior to that we -- we went in and we wanted the school
4 health program and the school physician to be lodged within
5 DOE so that it would have a better direct service to, you
6 know, our kids, and we have models nationally that shows that
7 it works, and the model of having those services lodged in
8 separate agencies have always shown to show great difficulty
9 in collaboration and cooperation.
10 Q. Thank you. You know, you know that 504, where does
11 it fit in with this IDEA? Is that part of the expanded
12 services that we provide?
13 A. Yeah. It's a -- the Felix -- well, this Felix
14 class also -- this lawsuit includes 504 kids. It's not only,
15 you know, relegated to and narrowed to IDEA. So those who
16 require some form of modification in their instructional
17 methodologies or whatever it might be or some supportive
18 assistance or those only requiring mental health services who
19 may not necessarily be placed in special ed but require
20 mental health as a form of direct service so that the
21 education can improve, then yes, we are required to provide
22 that service and we -- we are being evaluated and monitored
23 on how successful we are in providing that set of services,
24 so that would fall on the low end of services, low end cases.
25 Q. You know, Mr. Omura, you mentioned that Ivor Groves
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1 came from one of the worst states for mental health to come
2 down here to advise us local folks how to improve our system.
3 Do you think we got our money's worth?
4 A. I have failed to --
5 Q. That's okay.
6 A. -- to be able to make judgment on that.
7 Q. Thank you very much. Oh, one more thing. You
8 mentioned the state-wide system, you know like the military,
9 you know, the military installations?
10 A. Pfluger.
11 Q. Like Pearl Harbor, you know, the central district,
12 you know for the military to come to Hawaii to take advantage
13 of our services, it's much greater than populated?
14 A. Yes, that's true because some years ago I recall
15 the military MSTs were asking to be assigned to Hawaii
16 because, at that time anyway, they felt that Hawaii's system
17 of special ed services and all its related services was
18 superior to other places. So we knew that we had people
19 coming in specifically for that particular purposes, yeah, so
20 yeah.
21 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Omura.
22 REPRESENTATIVE ITO: Thank you very much,
23 Madam Co-Chair.
24 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you,
25 Representative Ito. Senator Matsuura, followed by
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1 Representative Kawakami.
2 EXAMINATION
3 BY SENATOR MATSUURA:
4 Q. Mr. Omura, you made a statement a while back that
5 kind of really bothered me. I wanted to make sure I heard
6 you correctly. You said the kids who really need help don't
7 really get it. I know we've heard in prior testimony that
8 kids that were receiving help actually weren't possibly
9 getting the appropriate services due to the possible
10 motivation involved in the system, but this is the first time
11 I ever heard someone say the kids who really need help don't
12 get it.
13 A. Do you recall what context I said that?
14 Q. It was kind of toward the beginning. I guess some
15 kids -- because I heard some relation in terms of within our
16 public school system that the kids that they are choosing
17 don't really need the services, yet there are children within
18 the classes who felt -- I mean, who actually don't -- who
19 need the services aren't actually getting the services,
20 basically the squeaky wheel gets the most grease.
21 A. I cannot recall under what context I said that.
22 Yeah, we do have concerns about kids needing services not
23 receiving them, but I don't know exactly what I said on that.
24 Q. You said at one time, too, the opinions of the
25 teachers are not heard or overlooked. By who exactly is
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1 their opinions not being heard by or their advice not being
2 heard by?
3 A. This is at the time that they are trying to develop
4 a workable IEP, you know. So oftentimes the parents or the
5 advocate or the lawyer or the service provider may have other
6 opinions about what would be the most appropriate and not
7 take into -- not value the opinion or professional judgment
8 of the classroom teacher or the person working --
9 Q. So basically at the IEP level that's basically
10 where our gatekeeping for all Felix service is. Who is
11 advocating and protecting the state of Hawaii, then? If the
12 teachers are no longer being listened to, who is on the
13 state's side? Is the principal -- and you just mentioned
14 that the AG practically gives an opinion that's just, fine,
15 give them whatever you want. Who on the IEP level is
16 protecting the state or looking after the best interest of
17 the state?
18 A. No one or whatever assistance they can get from the
19 district if they --
20 Q. Are the teachers and the principals still under the
21 opinion that they are personally liable for their role in the
22 IEP?
23 A. They've been accused and they've been threatened
24 and badgered into that.
25 Q. Threatened and badgered by who?
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1 A. By lawyers and advocates.
2 Q. And what is the attorney general -- what is the
3 state's opinion -- what kind of support does the state
4 give --
5 A. Generally if it comes to that kind of situation, in
6 fact, then you do have a direct request for legal services
7 and at that point they would -- the AGs would come out. If
8 there is any semblance of a very litigious type of situation,
9 they would come out.
10 Q. So basically what you're saying is at the IEP
11 level, at the gatekeeping, there is no one advocating for the
12 state, and previous testimony that we've heard, and as well
13 as what you just confirmed, that like the Groves/Foster, that
14 they are fostering some kind of a scientific study that
15 they're going to be copyrighting. We've heard of testimony
16 where the MST process is being expanded as a prototype here
17 in Hawaii to be expanded out nationwide. So basically -- and
18 there seems to be no accountability at the top level as well
19 as the IEP level. Basically we -- as a state, we're a
20 sitting duck, then. Basically we're a pot of gold that
21 everybody just wants to use us as a guinea pig and mix in the
22 profit motives at the expense of our regular ed kids and our
23 teachers and our whole educational system, then.
24 A. You said a lot. I don't know about pot of gold or
25 what, but yes, we do have problems.
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1 SENATOR MATSUURA: Thank you.
2 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Are you done?
3 Representative Kawakami, followed by Senator Slom.
4 REPRESENTATIVE KAWAKAMI: Thank you, Chair
5 Hanabusa.
6 EXAMINATION
7 BY REPRESENTATIVE KAWAKAMI:
8 Q. Thank you for coming, Mr. Omura. I'd like to ask
9 this question first, because I have -- from day one when we
10 found out Felix was going to be -- have to be implemented in
11 the schools, I asked if the department was going to do a
12 master plan for special -- for this particular program, and
13 until today I have seen no master plan. Do you agree or
14 don't you agree? And I ask you that, Mr. Omura, because I
15 think the expectations that were, you know, expected for the
16 program, moving this in an orderly fashion, we did not see
17 any of this, and I think most programs will follow some kind
18 of course of action, and this being such an important thing,
19 the department somehow did not feel they had to do it. I
20 just wanted your opinion.
21 A. Well, let's put it -- I'll have to answer as best I
22 can.
23 Q. Sure.
24 A. Basically while I was still employed we did attempt
25 to develop a bigger design. The design was to meet some of
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1 the requirements of -- the Felix requirements as identified
2 in the original blue book. I don't know whether you folks --
3 it covered a whole array of areas, and it covered from early
4 intervention, primary prevention, in school, at risk, and
5 special ed, and that kind, so we tried to -- our budget
6 request was really aimed at meeting those sectors, and this
7 is how -- anyway, while I was -- this is how we approached
8 it, that we said we need X amount to cover adequately for the
9 state system these programs, these funds, and these positions
10 to come out with an adequate early intervention in the
11 schools. We needed this kind of program to continue to
12 better identify the at risk kids for they claim we're under
13 identifying.
14 So this is where we came out with more at risk kind
15 of identification, and then we came out with more requests
16 for special ed teachers, instructional training. We saw the
17 need for additional support positions such as OT, speech
18 therapists, where our projections showed that we're going to
19 have a huge increase. We knew that, but we had to work with
20 the university, because they were the training institution.
21 They were cranking out four to six, you know, master's people
22 on an annual basis and we needed at least 20 every year, that
23 kind of stuff, so we had to go in and meet with the board of
24 regents and college of ed people and try to work out -- and
25 school of medicine trying to hammer out what was affordable.
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1 The problem was everybody else, including
2 university, including all the other agencies in the state,
3 all viewed this as a DOE problem, not as a state problem. So
4 that's the problem. You know what I mean? So to comply with
5 all of this, we would take the initiative, but for them, you
6 know, they are saying, yeah, we think we can help you if you
7 give us $8 million for this or another $2 million for this,
8 and this being the case, this is how gradually this was part
9 of our staff development package, that eventually Don Nugent
10 and the department submitted. So this -- in a sense that
11 was -- that design, that was a personnel design. Program
12 design was imbedded in our budget request that we had made.
13 All of this should have been imbedded in a larger
14 CSSS program. I don't know if you folks -- so when you
15 really look at CSSS -- and here I'm plugging for CSSS -- is
16 fully recognized as a comprehensive way of addressing the
17 entire needs of the school, you know, the whole array and all
18 of the array of services, then most of this would fit in. So
19 in that sense I'm saying that's the design that we try to --
20 I'm sure it was not properly communicated or, you know,
21 enunciated.
22 Q. Well, anyway, I know CSSS is dear to your heart
23 and --
24 A. Negotiated.
25 Q. And at this point, because we can see how it
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1 complements the Felix program and we have put so many
2 positions into CSSS, can this be incorporated?
3 A. I would think yes, eventually all of this should
4 be -- should collapse into this larger umbrella.
5 Q. Following that model?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. Yes. I think maybe we need to look at that
8 direction, and it would be a long-term kind of solution to
9 getting, you know, everything in place.
10 A. I don't want to speak for the department. I no
11 longer work for them.
12 Q. With your expertise, we need to get that.
13 A. Hopefully, yeah.
14 Q. The other question is the different -- the
15 definition for Felix was really not tight, and you have, you
16 know -- they kept adding. I mean, now we've got the
17 autistic, you have the ADHD, even some post-traumatic kids,
18 et cetera, and that was one of the problems, and I thought if
19 we had a master plan, we could, more or less, like you were
20 saying, look at the monies in terms of what you had to put
21 out, and the university had a play in here because they have
22 to train these people. So I agree with you in that respect.
23 Anyway, and the other thing that I wanted to ask you is about
24 service testing because the schools that are service tested
25 and then when they come back the second time because they
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1 have not reached the level that they should, are they tested
2 with another test or is it the same test?
3 A. It should be the same instrument.
4 Q. So the same instrument is being used in some
5 schools three or four times?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. So they should know the answers?
8 A. But they have different kids, a different set of
9 circumstances.
10 Q. I'm saying because the testers are testing them and
11 the school pretty much knows what it's being asked for, so
12 you would think they would zero in on that?
13 A. Right, you would think they would know what to look
14 for and how to do it and provide the necessary services in a
15 proper way, yes.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Omura. My time is up.
17 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Senator Slom,
18 followed by Representative Leong.
19 SENATOR SLOM: Thank you, Co-Chair.
20 EXAMINATION
21 BY SENATOR SLOM:
22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Omura. You said that you retired
23 June 30th, '99 and you have since done contract work with the
24 Honolulu District. Are you still doing contract work now?
25 A. Yes, minor.
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1 Q. What basically is the nature of that work?
2 A. Well, I try to help the district staff in preparing
3 for service testing and meeting all the requirements for the
4 Felix decree as well as providing consult to what they want
5 to venture into, other at risk programs and in that arena.
6 Q. So basically you still are following the Felix
7 items and progress?
8 A. To some degree. Not as intensely or I don't know
9 the details as much as, you know, I needed to prior.
10 Q. And you did make reference early on about the fact
11 that since the time you've retired things have moved rather
12 quickly; is that a fair statement?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. When you were talking about abuses and
15 inappropriate services and so forth, would it then be a fair
16 statement to say that in your opinion the abuses that you've
17 seen, the inappropriate services have actually escalated in
18 the two-year period since you were with the DOE?
19 A. Since I left DOE?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Yeah, it has diminished only within the past half a
22 year.
23 Q. Would that include, for example, the kinds and
24 sizes of contracts which have been let by the DOE?
25 A. Well, I'm not too familiar with all the contract
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1 activities that went on, but I would -- I would think it has
2 some relationship to the school people becoming more familiar
3 with the providers and being able to know exactly who does
4 provide valid services and who don't, you know, and so they
5 are able to monitor better and ask for services that are
6 deliverable.
7 Q. Have you had any contact or any knowledge of the
8 $100 million Columbus contract?
9 A. No. That -- personnel?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. No.
12 Q. You mentioned earlier also that the relationship
13 and the information that was shared with the legislature and
14 requests were generally very positive?
15 A. Yes, while I was there.
16 Q. Would you characterize the problems that the state
17 is still having, would the source of those problems be a lack
18 of money that was provided by the legislature?
19 A. Not at that time. I'm not aware of whatever
20 budgetary requests they are making and what are not being
21 funded for. That I'm --
22 Q. But during your tenure, is it your belief that the
23 requests that were made for appropriations and so forth
24 basically were fulfilled by the legislature?
25 A. Yes, and I felt that we tried to request reasonable
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1 amounts of, you know, expenses.
2 Q. You mentioned earlier that you and others had
3 raised certain concerns but that those concerns had not been
4 put in writing. Were any concerns put in writing?
5 A. On our part?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. No, I don't think so. Much of it was, you know,
8 verbal dialogue.
9 Q. How is generally the communications with the Felix
10 compliance people? In other words, if you did raise concerns
11 verbally to them or you made suggestions or requests, what
12 generally transpired? Were they responsive?
13 A. Well, yeah, both. You might get a response or
14 sometimes you don't get a response.
15 Q. And you had mentioned that, initially at least,
16 there was not support from the attorney general's office for
17 teachers and personnel at the DOE. You mentioned later that
18 if there was a litigious situation, that they would come
19 forward, but we have heard many times that in fact the
20 attorney general's office not only did not look at contracts
21 but they did not provide support for personnel. Were you
22 dealing with more than one person at the attorney general's
23 office?
24 A. Generally we went through the supervisor.
25 Q. And who was that?
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1 A. It was Russell Suzuki.
2 Q. Russell Suzuki, and who was the attorney general at
3 the time you were involved with this?
4 A. Russell.
5 Q. No, the attorney general.
6 A. Well, Bronster.
7 Q. Ms. Bronster. And one final question, Mr. Omura,
8 do you have any regrets of things that maybe could have or
9 should have been done during your tenure at DOE or would have
10 been done differently?
11 A. In reference to Felix?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Because I have a lot of regrets.
14 Q. We all do, sir.
15 A. Yes, again, we did ask for special counsel at the
16 early onset, which we felt was necessary because we knew that
17 we weren't -- there wasn't that kind of time and knowledge to
18 provide the kind of support and understanding of what the
19 issues were, but regrettably we did not receive it. So
20 again, that was not put in writing. We should put things in
21 writing.
22 Q. Thank you, sir.
23 SENATOR SLOM: Thank you, Co-Chair.
24 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you.
25 Representative Leong, followed by Representative Marumoto.
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1 REPRESENTATIVE LEONG: Thank you, Chair.
2 EXAMINATION
3 BY REPRESENTATIVE LEONG:
4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Omura. My questions are
5 regarding the IEP, because some of the concerns you stated
6 about how teachers felt they had to cave in so many of the
7 IEPs were things that I had heard also and that I heard the
8 statement saying that teachers were too -- they acquiesce
9 because they were too shy to speak up, but actually the
10 teachers have talked to me said because they were afraid of
11 litigious situations for themselves, that's why they just
12 didn't know what to say, but having experienced all of this
13 and how they feel today, do you have any recommendations for
14 changes in the IEP today so that maybe -- now you have so
15 many lawyers there and so many advocates, but what would you
16 suggest to improve the situation?
17 A. The IEP is an instrument of the IDEA law, so IEP is
18 imbedded in the federal legislation and all of its
19 requirements. So I don't know how we in turn could change
20 the requirements of membership and participation and, you
21 know, even some of the things. What we could -- what we
22 could emphasize is the people participating in the IEP
23 conference -- I think if we were more diligent in developing
24 a more supportive, collegial setting, and let's not -- let's
25 try to work in the best interest of the child, but, of
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1 course, we have to -- the parents still consider themselves
2 seeking the best interest of the child, even if they come in
3 with a whole lot of requests, yeah, so I don't know, unless
4 we can develop a better climate for that to take place in and
5 a more realistic expectation of what would be appropriate set
6 of services that can be provided, I think -- unless that is
7 made very clear, we're going to continue to have situations
8 where people are going to continue to come and demand as much
9 services, inappropriate or whatever it might be, so I
10 don't -- I really don't know.
11 Q. Well, I kind of see it as like a report card
12 conference. You know when we have parents coming in with a
13 teacher and evaluating, and I know that we can always seek
14 the principal to help us make improved conferences. Who
15 helps to improve the IEPs? Is there someone? Who could they
16 turn to, which person?
17 A. Are you talking about staff support?
18 Q. Uh-huh.
19 A. In carrying out the IEP activity?
20 Q. Right.
21 A. Well, we should have support from the district or
22 the state provide that, yeah, so -- but again, at the
23 district level, they don't have adequate number of RTs to go
24 around to put out the fires, let's put it that way, because
25 they are just inundated with all of these requests and we
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1 should have better training, and of course it's easier said
2 than done because the teachers that have been complaining
3 have been training to death, so somehow we need to have that
4 balance, but more importantly I think it's a climate through
5 which they enter that setting. That to me is the key.
6 Q. Thank you. I have just one more brief question
7 regarding the service testing, and I know that you would have
8 given a lot of input to help, because your concern was to
9 provide an array of services to make sure there's a provider
10 for all these people in a fair way, so when this copyright
11 came out, did you feel that maybe the state of Hawaii should
12 have co-shared in this project?
13 A. I really don't have an opinion of that because,
14 like I said, we were naively ignorant of that situation. I
15 was.
16 Q. I see. Thank you.
17 REPRESENTATIVE LEONG: Thank you, Chair.
18 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you.
19 Representative Marumoto, followed by Co-Chair Saiki.
20 EXAMINATION
21 BY REPRESENTATIVE MARUMOTO:
22 Q. I will follow up on Representative Leong's
23 questions. Mr. Omura, you know in an IEP there's often
24 service providers in there also, right?
25 A. That's right.
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1 Q. Like psychologists or people who provide the
2 service to the child?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can they then turn around and refer business to
5 themselves, so to speak, their type of service?
6 A. They often do.
7 Q. They often do?
8 A. They are the ones insisting on extending whatever
9 they are providing, you know.
10 Q. So perhaps, you know, we really should look at
11 amending that procedure?
12 A. Participation.
13 Q. Well, they could participate maybe but maybe they
14 couldn't refer business to themselves or --
15 A. Yes, you're making a good point. We now have
16 imbedded in our RFPs the people who provide direct services
17 cannot be the same individuals who do the evaluation and make
18 that recommendation. So it's now -- we saw that problem
19 sometime ago, so we tried to imbed that in the RFPs.
20 Q. That's an improvement. Because there would be a
21 conflict of interest otherwise. Do you think we should
22 restrict the services to just direct services for the child
23 rather than, you know, for parents, respite, or fixing
24 fences, or that sort of, you know, going outside the realm,
25 so to speak?
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1 A. Well, again, the language of IDEA and the
2 definition of required related services is clear. Our
3 problem is the extended expanded inclusion of all of these
4 services under the demands and requirements of Felix consent,
5 so irrespective of whether we want to put in writing
6 restriction on these, I don't know where it's going to take
7 us.
8 Q. Well, I think we'll have Representative Ito look at
9 it in the education committee. Can I switch gears a little
10 bit to the consultants fees. You were saying Dr. Groves
11 received $1,000 a day in consultant fees. Do you happen to
12 know how long Mr. Groves has been receiving $1,000 a day?
13 How many days a week he worked?
14 A. No, I have no idea.
15 Q. But --
16 A. That's -- that is the kind of data that you folks
17 were trying to squeeze out of the Felix monitoring office,
18 and I think he makes $2,000 a day.
19 Q. $2,000 a day probably. Okay, thank you very much.
20 Thank you.
21 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you. I
22 believe Co-Chair Saiki has no questions.
23 EXAMINATION
24 BY CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA:
25 Q. Mr. Omura, I want to follow up on a comment you
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1 made in response to Senator Matsuura. You said you are
2 concerned about students needing services who are not getting
3 it. What's the basis for that concern?
4 A. Yeah, I'm trying to remember when I said that.
5 Q. You obviously have a concern about students who are
6 needing services and not getting it. So do you believe we
7 have students now who are in need of services and who are not
8 getting it?
9 A. Yes, we have pockets of areas where we don't have
10 providers.
11 Q. So is it a concern about the DOE's failure or our
12 failure to identify the students or is it a failure in terms
13 of provision of services or is it a combination of both?
14 A. It could be a combination of both, but more likely
15 it's a lack of our inability to provide and secure those
16 services in certain areas, and that has always been a very
17 big problem with us, because, you know, certain areas people
18 just don't want to go out and hang their shingle and provide
19 services, yeah.
20 Q. And in those situations, what do we tend to do to
21 meet the demands or the necessary services?
22 A. Well, in that kind of situation this is where we
23 have to -- the department has attempted to come out with
24 creative funding of contracts and creative ways of giving
25 them additional incentives, you know, to go out there, yeah,
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1 and I think this is the kind of approach that they've taken
2 because, you know, coming out with a single standard payment
3 schedule is very, very difficult.
4 Q. The other thing you said that was very interesting
5 was when you said that schools that keep taking the same
6 tests over and over again, you wonder why they don't pass
7 after three times of doing it. Are you aware as to whether
8 or not DOE is permitted to look at the raw information that's
9 gathered as a result of the service testing?
10 A. That's a good -- I know that was an issue. You see
11 many times -- let's put it this way. To understand how the
12 service testing report is made, at the same time how it's
13 generated, a lot of times the service testing activity, you
14 may have a person or parent or whoever who might make a
15 passing comment about a certain incident and that's taken
16 down and that's put into the report and the next thing you
17 know that's -- it's given the same weight as another problem
18 in another place even though it might merely be a very minor
19 one, but the person who might be collecting and consolidating
20 some of these would just put these down and the next thing
21 you know, the schools would have to respond to this full set
22 of questions, which may not necessarily be of equal weight or
23 of equal concern, and that's some of the concerns. That's
24 one of the flaws of how the reports were made. So knowing
25 something about how the thing was collected, and I know the
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1 question about, yeah, the schools weren't getting the report
2 on exactly what condition on a particular child was made and
3 the statement because they spoke in generalities and they
4 spoke in school terms and not specific, so they had no way of
5 correcting a specific child's --
6 Q. I guess that was the issue, was whether if they
7 know they failed and you see your test, like a school test,
8 and you know that next time this answer has to be this, then
9 there seems to be no excuse for failing again, but what
10 you're saying is the way service testing operates is the
11 school itself doesn't know what it's failing on and it just
12 keeps going until it gets it right?
13 A. Specifically.
14 Q. On a specific issue. Okay, thank you very much.
15 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Members,
16 Mr. Kawashima, any follow up?
17 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: No further
18 questions.
19 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: No. Members and
20 members of the public, what we're going to do now is we're
21 going to recess until 12:30, and if anybody wants to get
22 lunch or whatever, stretch, then we'll be back at 12:30. We
23 still have three remaining witnesses and the remaining of the
24 afternoon to go, so please be punctual. 12:30 we reconvene.
25 Thank you very much.
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1 (Recess taken.)
2 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Members, we'd
3 like to reconvene our hearing. Our next witness is Kaniu
4 Kinimaka-Stocksdale. We'll administer the oath at this time.
5 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Ms.
6 Kinimaka-Stocksdale, do you solemnly swear or affirm that the
7 testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole
8 truth, and nothing but the truth?
9 MS. KINIMAKA-STOCKSDALE: I do.
10 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you very
11 much. Members, we are following our usual procedure. We
12 will begin with questioning with Mr. Kawashima.
13 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Thank you, Madam
14 Chair.
15 EXAMINATION
16 BY SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA:
17 Q. Please state your name and business address.
18 Excuse me, before you do that --
19 MR. BETHEA: May I just enter my name for the
20 record. It's Robert Bethea, and I'm appearing here for Na
21 Laukoa and for Kaniu, who I'll refer to as Kaniu, and we
22 turned in the documents as requested. I got a chance to look
23 at them yesterday afternoon. I think they are fully
24 complete. I understand from Mr. Kawashima that there was
25 supposed to be some sort of an affidavit. I didn't see it.
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1 I took a quick glance. I still don't see whether we should
2 have done it, but in any event, it's not there, but you've
3 advised me we can do a supplemental affidavit, and if there
4 are any other further documents that you need, Na Laukoa will
5 be very pleased to comply.
6 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Thank you,
7 Mr. Bethea.
8 Q. Now, will you please state your name and business
9 address, ma'am.
10 A. I am Kaniu Kinimaka-Stocksdale, location 101
11 Hunamua Street, Hilo, Hawaii, ZIP code 96720.
12 Q. And Mr. Bethea is the attorney here for Na Laukoa,
13 sitting with you?
14 A. Yes, he is.
15 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Now, those
16 documents you produced to Mr. Bethea, with the subpoena, I
17 believe, I could be wrong, there was a set of procedures that
18 the committee has adopted and is following, and all that is
19 required is that anything presented be presented with a sworn
20 statement. Now, what you can do is present that, leave it
21 here, we will consider it, if the committee decides to
22 consider it. It's their choice, not mine, but I think what
23 you need to do is perhaps first thing next week is submit
24 that sworn statement and I'll -- if you call me, I'll give
25 you the requirements of it.
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1 MR. BETHEA: Thank you very much.
2 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Then we will have
3 that accompany these documents and present them to the
4 committee for their consideration.
5 MR. BETHEA: Thank you.
6 Q. Ms. Stocksdale.
7 A. Aloha.
8 Q. I'd like to ask you some questions about your
9 background. First of all, will you give us your educational
10 background, ma'am?
11 A. I am a proud graduate of Kapaa High School on the
12 island of Kauai and a student of life.
13 Q. Did you pursue any education after graduating from
14 Kapaa High School?
15 A. I am pursuing my -- some what of a degree in
16 psychology and education.
17 Q. Good. From where, ma'am?
18 A. University of Hawaii and the Hawaii Community
19 College.
20 Q. I see. When did you start pursuing that --
21 A. Last summer.
22 Q. Is that a degreed program?
23 A. Last summer.
24 Q. To get an associate's degree?
25 A. Hopefully more than that. Hopefully a bachelor's.
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1 Q. But what you'd have to do is complete the two years
2 or so, whatever the requirements are, to fulfill those
3 requirements at the community college and then transfer to
4 one of the UH campuses?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That is your goal and your intent?
7 A. Yes.
8 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Excuse me, Ms.
9 Stocksdale, could you please raise your microphone it's a
10 little bit low.
11 CO-CHAIR SAIKI: Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: How's that?
13 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.
15 Q. How about your employment background, ma'am? We'll
16 go back to -- am to understand you started to pursue
17 employment after graduating from Kapaa?
18 A. Yes, as a hula dancer.
19 Q. All right. Can you kind of go through the types of
20 work that you did starting, then, when you graduated. By the
21 way, if I may ask you, when did you graduate from Kapaa High
22 School?
23 A. 1968.
24 Q. After that, then, can you recount for us the
25 employment history you've had since that time.
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1 A. I'd say through high school as a hula dancer, as a
2 performer. Throughout most of my years as a performer and
3 training in hotel management, purchasing, costs, public
4 relations, and after that went into -- I'm a person of the
5 entrepreneurship spirit and created things as I went along,
6 took up opportunities when I saw fit and took up
7 opportunities and ran with them. One of them was -- after I
8 had come back from the Orient dancing in '74, married with a
9 child, I went into the public relations division with Hawaii
10 Visitors Bureau, and that I believe was in '75, '76. Then
11 domestic engineer for a period of time, and then got into
12 more entrepreneurial-type businesses, the modeling agency and
13 school, Big Island Production Services, and personal
14 development.
15 Q. And you've been doing that up to the present time?
16 A. Up to the present time, where we are now, with the
17 two different contracts that we have, it's a bit different.
18 Q. Now, I understand that you are an owner or part
19 owner in a number of corporations or limited liability
20 corporations, are you not?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Can you tell me which ones they are, which
23 corporations we're talking about?
24 A. There's Kaniu 1, LLC, which is presently Na Laukoa;
25 Kaniu 2, which is inactive; and Kaniu 3, which is inactive,
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1 both LLCs.
2 Q. Any other companies?
3 A. The Four Winds Corporation that does -- it's a
4 family owned Laundromat.
5 Q. I'm sorry, family owned what?
6 A. Laundromat.
7 Q. All right. Any others?
8 A. No.
9 Q. I see some names. Big Island Productions, is that
10 one of your companies?
11 A. That was one of them that we closed down recently,
12 yes.
13 Q. What kind of company was that, ma'am?
14 A. That was one of my fun things I did. It's -- I'm a
15 production coordinator/manager. We do location scouting. We
16 do logistical work. We do permitting, catering, scheduling
17 of crews that come from the mainland coming to the state of
18 Hawaii, and we service them across the state to assure that
19 they have a productive, cost efficient, successful production
20 filming, filming and video.
21 Q. How about there's a Kaniu Kinimaka Model and Talent
22 Agency, is that still in existence?
23 A. On a very small scale. We do it more just for the
24 youth on the Big Island. That was created as a counterpart
25 of doing personal development classes for the children on the
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1 island because, well, models on the Big Island are somewhat
2 limited as to the quality level. There was more need for
3 personal development than there was for glitz and glamor.
4 Q. If I might, the Kaniu companies, you mentioned
5 Kaniu 3, which is inactive or not in existence?
6 A. It's inactive, yes.
7 Q. What kind of company was that, ma'am?
8 A. It wasn't really anything. It was just there.
9 There was a series of LLCs created for potential businesses,
10 which that did not materialize.
11 Q. I see. Do you recall what kind of businesses -- or
12 let me ask you this way. Records from the DCCA suggest that
13 the purpose of Kaniu 3 was for the coordination and
14 management -- for coordination and management services; is
15 that correct?
16 A. That would be like Big Island Production Services,
17 Mr. Kawashima.
18 Q. What kind, I'm sorry?
19 A. Big Island Production Services.
20 Q. But nothing came of that company?
21 A. No. It's a small scale.
22 Q. Is it still in existence, though?
23 A. No. It hasn't been in existence since Na Laukoa
24 has been created.
25 Q. When was Na Laukoa created?
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1 A. I believe it was '96, '97. I can't remember
2 exactly, but some place around there.
3 Q. Was Na Laukoa -- strike that.
4 What I've seen is Kaniu 1, LLC, doing business as
5 Na Laukoa.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was Kaniu 1 in existence first and then 2 and 3, is
8 that how it worked or not?
9 A. I can't remember, Mr. Kawashima. I'm sorry.
10 Q. But you were a principal owner of all three of
11 them, were you not?
12 A. Yes, I am.
13 Q. Are you the only owner of all three of them?
14 A. I'm the only sole member, yes.
15 Q. And Kaniu 2, the records show purpose is for,
16 quote, investments, end quote?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. What kind of investments was that company formed
19 for?
20 A. Well, I believe the title was used investments, but
21 it was going to be used for like a consultant company.
22 Q. For investments?
23 A. No. For services.
24 Q. I see. Oh, I missed one. There's a Kaniu 3, Na
25 Mele O Kinimaka. Is that a different company?
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1 A. That's all under Kaniu 3. It's one of the
2 functions under Kaniu 3 that we were going to do recording.
3 There's lots of talent on the Big Island, and we were hoping
4 to take some of our youth and see if we could do videos and
5 audio stuff with them, but Na Laukoa took a lot of my time.
6 Q. Now, Na Laukoa, you are the sole owner of that
7 company?
8 A. Yes, I am.
9 Q. You say it was formed in either '96 or '97. For
10 what was it formed?
11 A. I can't remember.
12 Q. That's all right.
13 A. I can't remember, Mr. Kawashima.
14 Q. I'm not asking --
15 A. Thanks, Mr. Kawashima. Na Laukoa was formed to do
16 services, services for special needs youth.
17 Q. All right. Was Kaniu 1 -- strike that.
18 Was Kaniu 1 started as Na Laukoa or was it started
19 as something else and later on became --
20 A. It's just -- the Kaniu 1, LLC papers were just made
21 to be there, and then Na Laukoa became part of Kaniu 1.
22 Q. So that Kaniu 1 then became, quote, Kaniu 1 d/b/a
23 Na Laukoa, end quotes, correct?
24 A. Yes, Mr. Kawakami.
25 Q. And that would have happened in '96 or '97, that
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1 change?
2 A. As what I can recall. I can't remember the exact
3 date, Mr. Kawashima.
4 Q. And in any case, if I might focus in on Na Laukoa,
5 that was formed to provide special needs services?
6 A. Na Laukoa was created under the title of the
7 Kapiolani Health Hawaii Demonstration Project on the Big
8 Island of Hawaii, and I believe my first introduction to it
9 was in the year '96, '97 where a meeting was held in Waimea
10 and a discussion -- at that time I believe Dr. Monger was
11 involved, he was on the island, and my introduction to
12 special needs was there at that meeting in Waimea.
13 Q. When you say introduction to special needs, ma'am,
14 what do you mean by that?
15 A. Prior to that date I had been performing services
16 for special ed children on the Big Island, Waiakea High
17 School, Honoka'a, Kohala, Pahoa, Hilo High, Hilo
18 Intermediate, and during that time period I had learned that
19 there was such a need for these special kids. I mean, kids
20 that -- the children we work with, they are the ones that DOE
21 seems to have the most difficult time with, and we would --
22 it would be myself and then I subcontract with local artists,
23 dancers, musicians, stuff of that sort.
24 I'd work with the DOE on a set contract, provide
25 different types of services. I'd bring in these other
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1 subcontractors to offset the instruction value to these
2 youth. They were special needs children that had behavior
3 health problems, but in those days I didn't know that. All I
4 knew that they were the darlings from the DOE that were the
5 hardest to handle. So what I did was I created programs
6 around these youth that were different. And when I say
7 different, it wasn't your traditional approach. The
8 traditional approach as to how I understood it was to work
9 with the problem of the child. The cultural approach is what
10 I did, and I worked with the child through their strengths,
11 their talents, what I thought or what we saw was of -- was
12 something that would make them feel and believe themselves as
13 leaders.
14 Q. All right. And these were students from all --
15 A. Different schools, yes.
16 Q. And these were -- you and I are doing the same
17 thing where we talk over each other, and the young lady there
18 that's the reporter, the stenographer, she's taking every one
19 of these words down, so --
20 A. I apologize.
21 Q. I will promise not to talk over you. Please don't
22 talk over me when I'm speaking. Sometimes if you wait, it
23 might be easier to answer the question. It might be faster,
24 actually.
25 A. All right.
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1 Q. Now, my understanding is that you would be -- what
2 you just described, providing assistance to students of all
3 ethnicities?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. From all cultural backgrounds?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Yes?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. When you say a cultural approach, give
10 me an example of what you mean by that.
11 A. Oh, easy.
12 Q. Cultural approach.
13 A. Cultural approach, example, if a child would have
14 some special interest in something, we'd work with what their
15 interests were, whatever culture they were.
16 Q. And give me a little more specific example of where
17 a child has such a cultural interest where you enhance that
18 interest.
19 A. Sure, I'd be happy to. Example: Let's say a young
20 girl who has an interest in singing but she's pulling really
21 low grades in school, truancy, a real tita in school, no like
22 pay attention, doesn't want to participate, we work with her
23 through her singing. First we engage with her her talent,
24 work through her talents, engage her to trust us, and then
25 work through her problem, having her be responsible, be more
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1 respectful, stuff of that sort.
2 Q. And these services, ma'am, were being provided
3 through Na Laukoa?
4 A. No. They were being provided through myself as the
5 separate entity.
6 Q. I see. Were they for special needs students only,
7 though?
8 A. No. They were for any child that had any problem.
9 At that time, too, Mr. Kawashima, I didn't realize that there
10 was a title to them as special needs in those years. I
11 didn't realize that they had any special name. All I knew is
12 that -- oh, no, excuse me. They were like special motivation
13 students, special motivation students, alternative learning
14 centers, that's where these youth came from besides special
15 needs, besides special ed. Sorry.
16 Q. And were you providing these services, ma'am, as
17 you say by yourself, but for free or for a fee or how was it?
18 A. There was small contracts like for a six-week
19 program I'd get $300 and I'd provide classes for like maybe
20 two, three times a week. They varied depending on what
21 school, what location, that kind of stuff.
22 Q. I see -- is that -- was that a typical amount that
23 you charged for that program you put on, you say --
24 A. Mr. Kawashima --
25 Q. -- $300 per contract?
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1 A. It's not what I charged. They were grants or
2 available funds that were available at that time.
3 Q. I see. So that it would be fair to say for a
4 program you put on, would it typically be with a grant in the
5 amount of $300 or less or more?
6 A. Sometimes more.
7 Q. If I might ask, doing that type of work, what was
8 the largest grant that you obtained, you yourself?
9 A. Gosh, I can't remember, Mr. Kawashima. It could
10 vary depending on the locale and how many students were
11 involved.
12 Q. I see.
13 A. I remember doing a six-week program for $900 for
14 32 -- 26 students at that time.
15 Q. 26 students for six weeks?
16 A. For six weeks for $900 and that was at Laupahoehoe
17 Elementary.
18 Q. As far as you were concerned, was that a fair
19 amount for the grant to be for the services that you provided
20 to these 26 students?
21 A. That's what the school could afford.
22 Q. Now, when did the work then become work that was
23 actually being performed by Na Laukoa, as opposed to you
24 alone?
25 A. We became Na Laukoa when the Kapiolani Health
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1 Hawaii Demonstration Project came to birth on the Big Island
2 as a demonstration project under Kapiolani Health Hawaii.
3 Q. When you say demonstration project, ma'am, can you
4 tell us what that means?
5 A. I can try to do my best.
6 Q. Sure.
7 A. I'm not sure if I'm going to remember everything.
8 Kapiolani Health Hawaii had won a bid, and I believe the
9 bidders at that time were three different people, the two I
10 remember clearly is HMSA and Kapiolani Health. It was a
11 demonstration project to provide services for special needs
12 children. The Big Island of Hawaii was selected to have
13 these services be -- have this project be demonstrated. It
14 was on the Big Island. We had -- there was a meeting -- and
15 this I remember. I don't remember the dates. It may have
16 been '96. There was a meeting at Waimea Elementary School
17 when all these people from the Department of Health -- and I
18 believe at that time it was Richard Monger's leadership where
19 the meeting was held in the cafeteria at Waimea School to
20 talk about this demonstration project and talk about
21 Kapiolani Health Hawaii being the contract person and how
22 they were going to go into the community and look for
23 different providers to provide services for special needs
24 children.
25 One of the things that stuck out real a lot in my
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1 mind at that meeting, which is why it struck my interest, was
2 when Dr. Monger at that time made a comment regarding
3 bringing in some specialists -- some Ph.D. specialists from
4 the mainland to work with our local people on their culture.
5 At that time several -- several of us in the audience stood
6 up and made comments regarding that. That was my first time
7 I spoke up to ask why do you have to bring mainlanders to
8 Hawaii to teach us our own culture? Why not just let us help
9 you to help us teach our culture.
10 At that time was my first introduction to the
11 Department of Health Child and Adolescent Mental Health. Of
12 all the previous years I had been providing services for
13 these particular students, I had not known that you could
14 make more money if you find the right clinical paper to put
15 to the services that we were providing, and that's when I
16 learned that we needed to have the proper clinical people
17 with the proper clinical credentials to help me do what I've
18 needed or wanted to do with these special needs youth.
19 Q. And you did in fact associate these people, did you
20 not, with the clinical background as you suggested?
21 A. You mean -- you mean --
22 Q. Make them a part of your group?
23 A. Yes, hire them, sir. Yes, sir.
24 Q. You can call it that. Are we talking about
25 Dr. Alameda as an example?
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1 A. If you're talking about Dr. Alameda at this present
2 time when he was on board with us with the technical
3 assistance project, is that what you're pertaining to,
4 Mr. Kawashima?
5 Q. No, I'm not asking necessarily that. I will ask
6 you questions about that in a bit, but I'm just asking about
7 Dr. Alameda as an example of a person you hired.
8 A. As an example, yes.
9 Q. And when was he hired?
10 A. Two, two and a half years ago now.
11 Q. Was he hired for a specific purpose, Dr. Alameda?
12 A. Dr. Alameda came to us two and a half years ago to
13 work with Na Laukoa. He was just going through his period
14 where he had just become a Ph.D. and he had to do some
15 service time before taking his Ph.D. license test. He had
16 gone and interviewed with several agencies throughout the
17 islands of Hawaii and had -- we were very blessed when he had
18 selected to work with Na Laukoa.
19 Q. When you say selected, who selected him?
20 A. Well, he selected us, to be honest with you.
21 Q. And then you hired him?
22 A. You betcha.
23 Q. And am I to understand that when Dr. Alameda
24 started -- well, strike that.
25 This state testing you talked about, is that the
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1 testing that would allow a person with a doctorate in
2 psychology to become a clinical psychologist?
3 A. A licensed psychologist in the state of Hawaii, and
4 I believe you need to be a licensed person so you can bill
5 properly, licensed.
6 Q. I see, but when he started with you, though, he had
7 not yet obtained that license?
8 A. No, not at that time.
9 Q. How soon after he started working with you did he
10 obtain that license?
11 A. Unfortunately he left us two years after he had
12 been with us, and I don't know if he has his license at this
13 time or not.
14 Q. If you might tell me, if it's something personal to
15 Dr. Alameda tell me, but do you know why he left your
16 employment?
17 A. Yes. He was hired by the Department of Health.
18 Q. Okay. And when did that happen?
19 A. In June of this year.
20 Q. I see. So he was with you from about June of '99
21 or maybe prior to that?
22 A. About two years.
23 Q. And during that time, to your knowledge, he never
24 obtained that license that he was trying to gain; is that
25 correct?
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1 A. I know he was up for his test, but I don't know
2 what the results were.
3 Q. He was up for his test, do you know when that was?
4 A. Sorry, sir, don't.
5 Q. Do you know if he actually had to take it more than
6 once?
7 A. Don't know that either.
8 Q. During the entire time that he was with you, then,
9 you're not aware that -- strike that.
10 During the time that he was with you, then, he did
11 not have that license you're talking about?
12 A. No, he didn't.
13 Q. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. As far as you are concerned --
16 MR. BETHEA: Excuse me, just one second.
17 You're talking about a license as a clinical psychologist?
18 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: I'm not sure if
19 that's even the right term, to be a licensed psychologist. I
20 think it's a term she used and I'm adopting that. Right,
21 licensed psychologist?
22 THE WITNESS: Well, he was -- he was a Ph.D.
23 that had just graduated, but for the state of Hawaii as a
24 clinical licensed psychologist, that's the only difference.
25 Q. That's the license he was trying to obtain?
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1 A. Yes, for the state of Hawaii, yes.
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. And that's --
4 MR. BETHEA: I was just trying to find out was
5 he licensed as a social worker, did he have to have that?
6 THE WITNESS: No.
7 Q. He had no professional license during the entire
8 time he was with Na Laukoa?
9 A. He had his credentials as a Ph.D., as graduate with
10 a Ph.D.
11 Q. Where did he obtain that, ma'am, that Ph.D. in
12 psychology?
13 A. I can't remember, Mr. Kawashima. Sorry.
14 Q. Was it UH here?
15 A. He had participated at the University of Hawaii.
16 He had gone away for several years to the mainland as well.
17 I believe it was Wisconsin. Don't quote me, though. I don't
18 have it by memory.
19 Q. No, I understand.
20 A. Thank you.
21 Q. As to where he actually got or finished his degree
22 requirements to become a Ph.D. in psychology, you can't
23 recall where that was?
24 A. No. I'm sorry.
25 Q. If I might, ma'am, I got side tracked, talk about
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1 Na Laukoa and the type of work you did. I understand that
2 initially Na Laukoa had contracted with the Department of
3 Health to provide services for special needs children, am I
4 correct?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. And in the nature of how many of those contracts
7 did Na Laukoa have with DOH?
8 A. One.
9 Q. And for what period of time was that contract in
10 existence?
11 A. Let's see. We went with Kapiolani Health Hawaii
12 first and then from Kapiolani Health Hawaii, after Kapiolani
13 Health had found out that they could not maintain the
14 demonstration project as well as they had bid it for, it then
15 went back to the Department of Health, so it was the carry
16 over to the Department of Health.
17 Q. I see. Let me ask it this way.
18 A. The time period, Mr. Kawashima, I can't remember.
19 Q. But for how long, maybe, did you work on that
20 project?
21 A. Kapiolani Health? With Kapiolani Health?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. I would say a year, maybe a little over a year.
24 Q. And then once it got transferred to the
25 jurisdiction of the Department of Health, how much more work
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1 did you do with that project?
2 A. From the time it was transferred from Kapiolani
3 Health Hawaii, it went over to DOH until present.
4 Q. I see. It's still in existence, then?
5 A. Yes, sir. We --
6 MR. BETHEA: Wait. You have to let him ask a
7 question.
8 Q. Na Laukoa is still providing services through the
9 Department of Health to children on the Big Island?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. During the time that you -- or I should say Na
12 Laukoa was providing services up to the present time, even,
13 for the Department of Health, for that project, were there
14 ever complaints from people at the Department of Health for
15 the manner in which Na Laukoa was providing its services?
16 A. Mr. Kawashima, yes, of course. We were like the
17 newest kids on the block. We were learning a system that was
18 foreign to us at that time. We had bumps and bruises. We
19 went through a lot of training, a lot of clinical learning,
20 as well as administration stuff. Yes, we had numerous
21 complaints at that time.
22 Q. And these complaints came from whom, ma'am?
23 A. From the Department of Health. It would come
24 from -- depending on what the complaint was, Mr. Kawashima,
25 it would then vary. The individuals varied.
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1 Q. Now, I understand what you're saying about being
2 the new kids on the block, but were there repeated
3 complaints, though, about the same things?
4 A. May I give you an example, maybe?
5 Q. Please.
6 A. Example: For therapeutic aide, in our company we
7 call them wawae. Wawae is your feet or legs. They are the
8 individuals that work directly with the children on a
9 one-on-one. They are the ones that play with the child, walk
10 with the child, talk with the child. Our wawaes were unique.
11 Unique in a sense that because some of the rules and regs
12 when Kapiolani Health Hawaii had left, DOH came into play, we
13 had new clinical standards that was coming down the pipeline.
14 We had wawaes from the Kapiolani Health Hawaii time where the
15 qualifications weren't as clear and weren't as defined as to
16 where they are today.
17 Our wawaes were high school graduates and some of
18 them just high school graduates. At Na Laukoa we hired the
19 wawaes not necessarily for their paper, but we hired them for
20 the na'auao that they possess within themselves to work with
21 the youth the way that the youth needed the help.
22 The Department of Health -- Kapiolani Health Hawaii
23 had complaints as well, which we had worked through.
24 Department of Health had similar complaints as well as to our
25 behavior -- because of lack of training and as to our lack of
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1 knowledge on documentation, which we had -- we had
2 implemented several trainings to correct that error.
3 Q. You mentioned complaints about behavior, though.
4 What were you referring to in terms of what the wawae were
5 doing?
6 A. Thank you. The wawae would be a little bit too
7 strong in some situations or not give enough structure or
8 directive properly, and sometimes they would speak harshly
9 and sometimes they would not know how to speak at all, speak
10 properly in certain circumstances and situations.
11 Q. You're talking about the -- the wawae you employed,
12 though, right?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. And did you screen them for those areas -- in those
15 areas before you hired them?
16 A. In the beginning we had a human resource person who
17 did all the interviews and sorts. She would interview them
18 and work with them. She would feel that they would be -- the
19 individual wawae would be at least trainable, and this is in
20 the very early stages of our services, and as time went on
21 the rough edges got softer and smoother and better, more fine
22 tuned.
23 Q. I see.
24 A. It took time. It took time. We started from grass
25 roots, Mr. Kawashima.
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1 Q. And how much time did it take about, to transition
2 from being where these wawaes started to where they became
3 more fine tuned, as you say?
4 A. Depending on the wawae, the individual, it could be
5 a short period of time to a long period of time. It varied.
6 Q. When you testified that sometimes these wawae were
7 too strong, what did you mean by that?
8 A. Oh, you know, local style when you're in the
9 trenches -- when you -- example. This is just an example.
10 When we found an individual that we thought would have like a
11 special talent, maybe music, singing, poetry, crafting, stuff
12 of that sort, we would work on that skill to see -- to find
13 ways to work on the other skills, because we always had youth
14 that came to us -- special needs kids that would come to us
15 with a different need other than taking care of the problem.
16 So it varied. It varied as to how we were able to get that
17 wawae to smooth out his or her rough edges and not be as bold
18 or as strong when they are servicing our child in school.
19 They became very protective over the children in school.
20 That's why.
21 Q. Were you attempting -- when you searched for these
22 people to do the job, the wawaes, were you attempting to
23 focus on special needs -- students who were special needs
24 students to hire to do the work?
25 A. We were focusing on the youth that had a behavior
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1 problem, special needs fell in that category.
2 Q. So some of your employees were ex-special needs
3 students?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, again, too strong, you don't mean physically,
6 do you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Too strong in terms of?
9 A. Strong in personality.
10 Q. So the manner in which they came across in how they
11 treated the students that they were supposed to be
12 assisting --
13 A. It wasn't too much the students. It was more the
14 people around the students.
15 Q. Such as?
16 A. Maybe a teacher or counselor or maybe another
17 adult.
18 Q. So that these wawae would have difficulty sometimes
19 interacting with these adults sometimes?
20 A. Sometimes, depending on the situation and depending
21 on where they were at.
22 Q. And they would, as you say, sometimes come on too
23 strong?
24 A. In the past. In the beginning, yes, Mr. Kawashima.
25 Q. And you agree that they needed to improve
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1 themselves in that sense? If they were coming on too strong,
2 they needed to improve their conduct, right?
3 A. We both agreed to the need of improvement, yes.
4 Q. Now, there came a time, though, ma'am, when Na
5 Laukoa was being considered to assist the Department of
6 Education in providing services for, a phrase we've used
7 here, called targeted technical assistance. Do you remember
8 that?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. And Na Laukoa ultimately -- we'll get to the
11 details of it, but Na Laukoa ultimately was subcontracted by
12 Pacific Resources for Education and Learning, PREL we call
13 it, to provide assistance in that area of targeted technical
14 assistance, right?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. And the contract that PREL entered into with the
17 Department of Education I believe was signed in August of
18 2000, last August, right?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. And then after that subcontract was entered into
21 between PREL and Na Laukoa; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. But even prior to that -- even prior to the
24 subcontract and prior to the original contract, Na Laukoa was
25 being considered to provide targeted technical assistance
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1 through the department of -- for the Department of Education
2 in various complexes, right?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. And I understand that Na Laukoa, through its
5 representatives, yourself, Dr. Alameda, and perhaps others,
6 actually made a presentation to the Department of Education
7 personnel about what you could do in the area of providing
8 targeted technical assistance services, right?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. And that occurred, I think, in July of last year.
11 Do you remember that?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. July of 2000?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Who had put on that presentation, by the way? Do
16 you remember the one I'm talking about at the Department of
17 Education headquarters?
18 A. May I go back just a little bit, Mr. Kawashima?
19 Q. Sure.
20 A. Just a tad. We were -- there was a preliminary
21 meeting before that.
22 Q. Between who?
23 A. The preliminary meeting was with Dr. Houck and
24 Dr. LeMahieu, and I believe it was down at our office in Hilo
25 where our clinical staff and our two administrative people
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1 besides myself met with Dr. Houck and Dr. LeMahieu regarding
2 the discussion of the technical targeted assistance project.
3 That was the first meeting we had.
4 Q. When did that meeting take place, ma'am?
5 A. If you're telling me that July was when we met the
6 DOE folks?
7 Q. Yes, here.
8 A. On Oahu, yes, then I would say it would be sometime
9 the ending of June, sometime the ending of June.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. Ending of June beginning of July we met with
12 Dr. Paul and Dr. Douglas.
13 Q. Dr. Paul being Dr. LeMahieu?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that was at Na Laukoa's offices in Hilo?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, this matter of targeted technical assistance,
18 assuming that this preliminary meeting took place towards the
19 end of June of last year, when did you first become aware of
20 that concept of targeted technical assistance prior to that
21 meeting?
22 A. I believe it may have been sometime -- there was
23 conversation going on after a court report came out and that
24 was --
25 Q. Court report from the federal court?
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1 A. Yes. There was a court report that came out, and I
2 believe the first time it was ever brought up to me -- and I
3 can't remember how or when or where -- it was in May, in May.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. May.
6 Q. There's been discussion here about an order that
7 the federal court issued sometime in that period you're
8 talking about that gave the Department of Education and the
9 Department of Health, their directors, certain powers that
10 would allow them to not necessarily follow state procurement
11 regulations and requirements. Is that what you're talking
12 about, that one?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Was it --
15 A. It was a court report done by the court monitor, I
16 think. It was a document that came out and said something
17 about -- the conversation was a document that came out of the
18 court reporter's report, and the discussion was around that.
19 Q. Was it the court monitor's report, though, that
20 recommended that there be a program of providing targeted
21 technical assistance?
22 A. I don't remember saying a program. I just
23 remembered saying targeted assistance, needing -- the words
24 were needing targeted assistance.
25 Q. All right. And that's what you understood to be
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1 what started this search for organizations and people who
2 could provide that targeted assistance?
3 A. At that time I -- nobody really knew what it was,
4 and I didn't know what it was at that time as well. It was
5 just a conversation, a discussion that was said at that time.
6 Q. But by the time of that meeting, though, in late
7 June of 2000, last year, by the time of that meeting between
8 Dr. Houck, Dr. LeMahieu, and yourself, by that time you were
9 aware of this targeted technical assistance concept, right?
10 A. That was in June, Mr. Kawashima?
11 Q. End of June.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. How long before that meeting were you
14 aware of this concept of targeted technical assistance?
15 Might it have been as early as May 2000?
16 A. I can't really say for sure, Mr. Kawashima. I'm
17 sorry.
18 Q. But you did know, though, the meeting we're talking
19 about that took place around the ending of June at your
20 offices in Hilo at which Dr. LeMahieu, Dr. Houck, and
21 yourself were in attendance --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- you knew by the time of that meeting the
24 Department of Education was looking for an organization or
25 people who could help in that way, right?
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1 A. We were talking about that, yes, sir.
2 Q. So you knew by the time of this preliminary meeting
3 that at least one of the subjects of that meeting was going
4 to be providing targeted technical assistance?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. And did the other two people in that meeting,
7 Dr. LeMahieu and Dr. Houck, appear to know that this meeting
8 was for that purpose, to discuss targeted technical
9 assistance?
10 A. The discussion wasn't really something serious. It
11 was more in the -- at that time, the way I understood it, it
12 was talking about targeted assistance and just getting a feel
13 as to what it might be.
14 Q. Was it you describing what that assistance was or
15 was it them describing it to you or just a discussion?
16 A. It was just a discussion of putting our heads
17 together and just talking about targeted assistance.
18 Q. Now, at that point in time, ma'am, in late June of
19 2000, neither Na Laukoa or you yourself had any contracts
20 with the DOE, did you?
21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. You had one contract with the DOH, though, still in
23 existence at that time, right?
24 A. I'm sorry?
25 Q. You had a contract -- let me say that again. Na
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1 Laukoa had a contract with the Department of Health, though,
2 at that time --
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. -- that was ongoing?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. But nothing with the DOE as of that point in time;
7 is that correct?
8 A. Through our DOH contract, we were providing
9 services on school campus.
10 Q. Sure.
11 A. And at that time we were working with the schools
12 and working with the folks on the school campuses.
13 Q. Sure. I understand that.
14 A. And there was services that we provided under DOH
15 on the school campus.
16 Q. I understand that. I understand that at that time
17 DOH was charged with the responsibility of providing those
18 types of services, but it was a contract with the DOH, not
19 DOE, right?
20 A. It was with DOH.
21 MR. BETHEA: May I ask her one question,
22 please?
23 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Yes, sure.
24 (Witness and counsel confer.)
25 MR. BETHEA: I'm sorry for the interruption.
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1 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: No, it's okay. Do
2 you have a --
3 MR. BETHEA: No. She simply wants to be as
4 accurate as possible, and I thought I remembered something,
5 but I guess I was -- I guess I misunderstood. Sorry.
6 Q. I'll ask the question which I thought I might have
7 asked at that point in time, ma'am. So as of that meeting in
8 late June of 2000 at your Hilo offices where Dr. Houck,
9 Dr. LeMahieu, and yourself were in attendance, you had not
10 yet entered into any type of contract with the DOE, am I
11 correct?
12 A. Yes, you are.
13 Q. And what, may I ask, brought Dr. Houck and
14 Dr. LeMahieu to Na Laukoa's offices in Hilo?
15 A. What brought Dr. Houck to the office?
16 Q. Both of them, because both came, right,
17 Dr. LeMahieu -- both were at your office, Dr. Houck and
18 Dr. LeMahieu?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And I must -- maybe I ought to ask it. Had you
21 invited them to your offices for a meeting?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. And what was the purpose of inviting them for that
24 meeting, ma'am?
25 A. To talk about targeted assistance, to do some
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1 brainstorming.
2 Q. So you, at that point in time, as you've already
3 testified, were aware that that concept was in existence,
4 right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And was it because you felt that perhaps your
7 organization could assist in providing that type of service?
8 A. Na Laukoa has a real entrepreneurship spirit and
9 we're very proactive in things. At that time we had found
10 that on the school campus things weren't being relayed down
11 to the people in the trenches fast enough where information
12 could get to -- we were trying to find -- find ways to get
13 information from the top down into the people where they were
14 doing the actual hands-on stuff, so I believe -- this is what
15 I remember. I believe I had a conversation with Dr. LeMahieu
16 regarding how can we find some place somewhere -- find an
17 answer to get information from the top down to the bottom
18 quicker, and then we went into several conversations
19 regarding finding ways where my people -- I mean all service
20 providers could better facilitate services in the trenches
21 quicker if we had newer and fresher information quicker, and
22 that's how it started.
23 Q. So all of that discussion you were just talking
24 about must have taken place prior to this meeting in Hilo,
25 right?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And these discussions you mentioned with
3 Dr. LeMahieu, how many of them were there?
4 A. Several. I can't remember the exact number.
5 Q. Several that span what period of time, weeks,
6 months?
7 A. Could be -- well, sir, if you're asking -- are you
8 asking me as to how long I've known Dr. LeMahieu?
9 Q. No, that's not the question I'm asking, ma'am. The
10 question is -- and let me lay some foundation here.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. You've testified that you learned about the concept
13 are targeted technical assistance sometime around May of
14 2000, you believe, not exact, when a court report came out,
15 right?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. And so you were aware of the concept. Now, from
18 the time you were aware of the concept until this meeting in
19 Hilo at the end of June, some, you know, time expired, right?
20 But I also heard you testify that you had had discussions,
21 though, with at least Dr. LeMahieu, if not others, but at
22 least him --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- about Na Laukoa being able to perform those
25 types of services?
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1 A. No, it wasn't that Na Laukoa was able to perform
2 those types of services. It was just targeted assistance.
3 We were doing brainstorming around the thought of doing
4 targeted assistance.
5 Q. But as you testified because of the
6 entrepreneurship that you and Na Laukoa had, obviously you
7 were thinking about perhaps Na Laukoa being able to provide
8 those types of services because of its background?
9 A. I'm a business person. Dr. LeMahieu and I have
10 something in common. We have a common interest in making
11 change, in trying to improve things so our children get
12 better, get their fair share, and when he had mentioned that,
13 yes, it did intrigue me.
14 Q. When did he first mention that to you?
15 A. I want to say about the same time when we had the
16 meeting with Dr. Houck and Dr. LeMahieu. I want to say
17 around that time.
18 Q. It must have been before that, though, huh?
19 A. We talked about -- it had to have been around that
20 time, Mr. Kawashima, because June -- it would have to be in
21 June.
22 Q. June?
23 A. It would have had to have been sometime in June.
24 Q. Although you were aware of this concept from May,
25 though?
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1 A. The report came out in May. The report came out in
2 April, May.
3 Q. Had there been -- you said something that I just
4 want to explore.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. You testified that -- make sure our children got
7 their fair share. What are you referring to?
8 A. Well, there's some of our youth that don't
9 necessarily get all that they need and --
10 Q. And -- I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. Go
11 ahead.
12 A. That's okay, sir. And for me, when I said fair
13 share, it was based on trying to get people to pay attention
14 to ensure that the child gets his or her fair share.
15 Q. All right. When you say some of our youth, who
16 would be in that category?
17 A. The population I serve, the special needs children.
18 Q. All special needs children?
19 A. Well, special needs -- now, please understand,
20 Mr. Kawashima, when I say special needs, to me special needs
21 is any child that has behavior health problems or behavior
22 problems, special motivation limitations, or a child that's
23 always in the judicial system. Those are special needs to
24 me.
25 Q. Are those students, by your definition, special
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1 education students by their definition?
2 A. It includes special education as well.
3 Q. But it's more than that, right, as far as you're
4 concerned?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Now, I may have asked you this. Who invited
7 Dr. Houck and Dr. LeMahieu to your office?
8 A. I believe I did because we wanted to talk about the
9 idea, the thing called targeted assistance.
10 Q. Am I to understand that you were able to invite
11 Dr. LeMahieu to your office in that fashion in late June 2000
12 and he would come to your office?
13 A. At that time -- we had a businesslike associate
14 relationship at that time by the numerous phone calls. We'd
15 just talk about stuff, stuff within the system, me getting
16 information from him or getting -- getting guidelines or
17 directives, stuff of that sort.
18 Q. By the nature of the work you were doing with the
19 students in the school --
20 A. In the school campus.
21 Q. -- you from time to time, even before this, would
22 call Dr. LeMahieu directly?
23 A. It wasn't always through him. I had to go through
24 his secretary.
25 Q. Sure. But you were able to call his secretary, ask
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1 for Dr. LeMahieu, and have discussions with him about the
2 work you were doing; is that correct?
3 A. I don't think Dr. LeMahieu is a man that's hard to
4 approach and he made it really clear then and now, and I was
5 one of many that would call his secretary or they'd direct me
6 one place or the other.
7 Q. All right. But then, apparently, in discussing
8 these issues with Dr. LeMahieu, it came to a point where you
9 could call his secretary and ask for him and she would put
10 you through and you'd discuss these issues with him?
11 A. Every once in a while -- well, not to discuss the
12 issues. Just to get information, you mean?
13 Q. Yes, for example.
14 A. To get information, anybody can call his office to
15 get information.
16 Q. And get him directly, right, to your knowledge?
17 A. I don't know if they can get him directly all the
18 time. I couldn't. I couldn't get him directly all the time.
19 Q. If he wasn't there, you couldn't get to him, right?
20 A. Even if he wasn't there.
21 Q. Would he return your calls?
22 A. He would, maybe in somewhat of a timely fashion,
23 yes.
24 Q. But in any case, you were able to invite him to
25 your office, he came along with Dr. Houck?
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1 A. Well, they were already on the island. They were
2 already on the island doing something, and being that they
3 were on the island, it's our -- it's our practice as part of
4 our protocol to extend hospitality. So he came over. We
5 talked about target -- I had asked him if he would like to --
6 if he would spend some time with us and talk about targeted
7 assistance. That's how it started.
8 Q. Was it as a result of that meeting, ma'am, in late
9 June in Hilo that Na Laukoa then became interested in
10 actually providing that type of assistance? Was it as a
11 result of that meeting?
12 A. I think the thing that intrigued me the most was
13 that this targeted assistance project was one that was going
14 to make school -- inside school change, and I think that's
15 where I was first intrigued regarding that, and then the
16 meeting seemed to be a little bit more positive that we could
17 talk more about it, and after that meeting we became
18 proactive and started writing up stuff and passing it back
19 and forth between Dr. Houck and us and Dr. LeMahieu and us
20 and Dr. Houck and us.
21 Q. I see. Before this meeting at the Department of
22 Education office here on Oahu, you were putting together a --
23 I guess, what, an application? What would you call it?
24 A. I don't know if it's an application. I think it
25 was just writing down drafts of some kind of narrative, some
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1 kind of description.
2 Q. I see. And as you were writing it to present,
3 Dr. Houck assisted you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And Dr. LeMahieu assisted you?
6 A. He would when he was available, but it was mainly
7 Dr. Houck that we were working with.
8 Q. So you would send the drafts to him by fax or
9 email?
10 A. Well, I need to bring some clarity here,
11 Mr. Kawashima. I believe they already had the idea and the
12 concept, and we were trying to just put our thoughts to it as
13 well.
14 Q. All right.
15 A. But -- I'm sorry, Mr. Kawashima.
16 Q. I'm sorry. Please.
17 A. But the way we were approaching it, we were
18 approaching it through a cultural aspect, a cultural style to
19 try to reach through the layers as to how we saw it working
20 in the system in the trenches.
21 Q. I see. These communications back and forth with
22 Dr. Houck, how were they effected, by phone or by email or by
23 fax, how?
24 A. I believe it was when we saw each other or when I
25 was on Oahu I dropped off a piece of paper, he'd look at it,
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1 and telephone calls and just thoughts being exchanged between
2 ourselves and him.
3 Q. But in any case, the purpose of all of this was to
4 have Dr. Houck provide you with the information so that you
5 could ultimately make a presentation to the Department of
6 Education, right?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. And same with the information, then, that went back
9 and forth between yourself and Dr. LeMahieu, when he had the
10 time, again, this type of communication back and forth and
11 the movement of information back and forth was for the
12 purpose of eventually having Na Laukoa make a presentation to
13 the Department of Education, right?
14 A. We weren't sure about that at that time,
15 Mr. Kawashima. We weren't sure at all.
16 Q. All right. But you did provide -- strike that.
17 But you did make a presentation, though? When I
18 say you, I mean Na Laukoa.
19 A. Yes, we did.
20 Q. And that was in July of 2000, July 7 sound right to
21 you?
22 A. July, yes, sir.
23 Q. And you went to the Oahu Department of Education
24 headquarters?
25 A. Yes, sir.
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1 Q. And there were a number of people in the room
2 there, including Dr. Houck, Dr. LeMahieu, and others and Na
3 Laukoa made a presentation, right?
4 A. I don't know if it was -- really a presentation is
5 what you would call it, Mr. Kawashima.
6 Q. What would you call it?
7 A. It was like a questions-and-answers period. I
8 believe the people present was Dr. Houck, Dr. LeMahieu, Bob
9 Campbell, and Ms. Paula Yoshioka.
10 Q. Paula Yoshioka, right? Okay. Anybody else?
11 A. I'm sorry, not Bob Campbell. Thank you. Bob
12 Golden. Bob Golden. Sorry, Bob Campbell.
13 Q. Not Campbell?
14 A. No, not Campbell. It was Golden.
15 Q. How about Ms. Hamamoto, was she there?
16 A. Ms. Hamamoto, she was unable to attend.
17 Q. And you say although -- you say it was more of a
18 question and answer rather than presentation. Nonetheless,
19 Na Laukoa did present written materials at that meeting, did
20 it not?
21 A. You know something, Mr. Kawashima, I can't
22 remember. I know they asked us a lot of questions. They
23 each had their own sheets of paper with questions on them,
24 and they each wrote their own notes down, is what I recall.
25 I don't -- I remember us submitting to them our capacity
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1 information as Na Laukoa, but I don't remember us doing a
2 formal type write-up of this technical assistance.
3 Q. How --
4 A. And we couldn't find anything in the files to --
5 regarding this.
6 Q. How about other materials, not necessarily a
7 written presentation, but visuals or anything else that was
8 put together to allow you folks to make sure they understood
9 what Na Laukoa was about and what it could do? How about
10 that?
11 A. I can't recall, Mr. Kawashima.
12 Q. Do you know if there were any other organizations
13 like Na Laukoa that were invited to make such presentations?
14 A. Not to my knowledge, sir.
15 Q. Do you know why that was the case?
16 A. Don't know, sir.
17 Q. Do you know why Na Laukoa was singled out to be the
18 only organization to make that type of presentation? Do you
19 know?
20 A. I don't know if Na Laukoa was singled out,
21 Mr. Kawashima. I do know that we had the opportunity of
22 being invited, but I don't know if we were singled out.
23 Q. But you were invited, were you not?
24 A. We were asked to come to talk to some DOE folks.
25 Q. And you were asked to talk with some DOE folks by
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1 Dr. LeMahieu?
2 A. I believe it was a combination at that time between
3 Dr. Houck and Dr. LeMahieu, but I couldn't be for certain as
4 to who really did the inviting.
5 Q. It could have been either one?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. And you were at that point being able to discuss
8 these types of issues directly with Dr. Houck, right?
9 A. The issues?
10 Q. Of providing that type of assistance.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And any questions you had in that same area, you
13 were in a position to discuss it directly with Dr. LeMahieu
14 also, right?
15 A. You mean at that --
16 Q. Just before that meeting took place on July 7th,
17 2000.
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: I think we've been
20 going for quite a while now, ma'am.
21 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Members and
22 members of the public, the court reporter needs to take a
23 break, so we will be taking a five-minute break. We will
24 convene at 1:50.
25 (Recess taken.)
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1 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Members, we are
2 resuming the hearing.
3 Mr. Kawashima.
4 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Thank you, madam
5 chair.
6 Q. Ms. Stocksdale, we were talking about that concept
7 of targeted technical assistance. Now, before that, though,
8 the work that you had been doing with Kapiolani and then with
9 the Department of Health but in the schools was work,
10 essentially, with students. Although you worked with
11 teachers and counselors and administrators, the direct work
12 that you did was essentially with students, was it not?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. And did you understand, though, that the concept of
15 targeted technical assistance now was something that would be
16 work that your organization would do not directly with
17 students anymore but with administrators and teachers and
18 people of that level?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Had you ever worked with teachers, administrators,
21 counselors, staff, people of that level before other than
22 what you had already been doing with the DOH contract?
23 A. I myself hadn't, but the people in my company had.
24 Q. Who were they?
25 A. Dr. Alameda, for one, and Dr. Ellen Rentz, as well
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1 as some of our clinical people that was on my staff.
2 Q. Already at that time on your staff?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Were they part of the presentation, or whatever we
5 might call it, on July 7th?
6 A. The first meeting that we had with Dr. Douglas and
7 Dr. Paul, Dr. Alameda, I believe Dr. Ellen Rentz was there as
8 well, and the entire clinical staff was there.
9 Q. When you say entire clinical staff, how many people
10 are you talking about?
11 A. I think it's something like five, five limas. In
12 our company -- lima is your hands. In our company, we use
13 that term for any person who was papered, licensed personnel.
14 They were the arms that surrounded us to teach us how to
15 write the documentation properly so it would meet the
16 standards of the Department of Health, the lima, the arms.
17 Q. You're talking about documentation, the area where
18 previously you had had problems with the Department of Health
19 in learning how to do that and you learned how after these
20 problems were pointed out to you; is that what you're talking
21 about?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. At that time, then, on or about July 7th of last
24 year, how many total employees did Na Laukoa have, not
25 including yourself?
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1 A. I can't remember, sir. I'd have to guess maybe 50.
2 Q. 50, five-zero?
3 A. Between 45 and 50 at that time.
4 Q. Were they all full-time?
5 A. I would say the majority -- I would say about 50
6 percent of them may have been full-time and the rest
7 part-timers, part-timers or contractors.
8 Q. You were the -- I guess you were the CEO of the
9 group, were you not?
10 A. I'm known as ke po'o, which means -- po'o is head,
11 the head. In English we translated it to be administrator,
12 yes.
13 Q. And in the business world, would they translate
14 that to be CEO?
15 A. CEO?
16 Q. Chief executive officer, the boss?
17 A. Okay. That will work too.
18 Q. So that you had these people working for you, but
19 you were the person at the top that directed all the work to
20 be done; is that right?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Did you have a financial person? Some people call
23 them chief financial officer, other people call them
24 controller, whatever. Did you have someone like that?
25 A. We had an 'a'i, which is your neck. I put the
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1 money control at our neck because there's times that we would
2 not make enough funds and we'd be choking, and that was our
3 fiscal manager.
4 Q. Who was that?
5 A. That was Candice Chadwick.
6 Q. And did Candice have a -- was she a CPA type
7 person?
8 A. No, she wasn't.
9 Q. But she had background in financial matters?
10 A. She had, yes.
11 Q. So when you put together -- any kind of budget that
12 you had put together for whomever you had to do it, might it
13 be with everyone taking part -- everyone participating in it,
14 not only Candice, but the people who supervise services would
15 be involved and ultimately you would approve that budget?
16 A. Are you talking particularly regarding the
17 technical targeted assistance budget?
18 Q. Let's talk about that one.
19 A. That budget, it was a combination of people that
20 helped with that budget.
21 Q. From your company?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. And you ultimately approved that budget, you as
24 the --
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. -- ke koko?
2 A. Ke Po'o, yes, sir.
3 Q. Ke po'o, okay. All right. So you -- I mean, not
4 the exact numbers, ma'am, but you understood the numbers and
5 how they worked out and who was to get how much for what
6 services were going to be performed? You were generally
7 aware of that, ma'am?
8 A. Generally, yes.
9 Q. How did you decide -- for example, you were
10 considered in that contract, I forget the title of the term,
11 but lead coordinator or something like that?
12 A. Lead coordinator?
13 Q. Is that what you were considered?
14 A. No, sir.
15 Q. Yes?
16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. What was your title in the contract context?
18 A. If you're referring to the technical targeted
19 assistance project, Mr. Kawashima?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. The lead coordinator was Dr. Kimo Alameda.
22 Q. I see. What was your title, then, in that project?
23 A. I don't believe I really -- I performed the
24 services as an advisor, as an advisor, cultural consultant
25 type person to provide support help to the project.
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1 Q. And what were your services going to be -- what was
2 going to be the cost of what you did in that contract, the
3 one with PREL?
4 A. What was my service? 50 percent of my time.
5 Q. And how much were you to be compensated for that?
6 A. Let's see. I was making I think it was six, 7,000
7 a month, $33,000, something like that, myself.
8 Q. All right. You yourself in terms of -- I'm not
9 talking about expenses for whatever it might be, travel,
10 whatever, I'm talking about payment for the work that you
11 did, the hours that you spent. Okay?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. In that contract, do you recall how much you had
14 budgeted as far as what you were to be paid for your
15 services?
16 A. It was to be at half time. It was like -- for the
17 targeted assistance project it was to be half time.
18 Q. What was that to translate into dollars, ma'am?
19 A. Let's see. For the PREL contract, total from May
20 of last year, is that what you want, Mr. Kawashima?
21 Q. That's good. That's a good place to start.
22 A. From May of last year to present -- to present?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. From the PREL contract?
25 Q. Yes.
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1 A. The total amount that I generated, sir, was about
2 $36,000.
3 Q. That was the total amount that was paid to you?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. And how much was Dr. Alameda paid, then, for that
6 same period of time?
7 A. That information I don't have, sir.
8 Q. Let's see. We saw figures that suggested that you
9 were paid much more than 36,000. Must that be wrong?
10 A. You know something, Mr. Kawashima, I'd really like
11 to get those figures in my checkbook, but they are incorrect,
12 sir. I don't have any idea where those numbers came from.
13 We thought maybe -- I'm sorry, Mr. Kawashima.
14 Q. No, please, go ahead.
15 A. We thought maybe it might have come out of -- a
16 portion of our budget states contractual, and the closest
17 number we could come to was 160, 180,000 that would pull in
18 those figures. I don't know where the 170 came from.
19 Q. Now, am I to understand, then, whether it's you or
20 Na Laukoa as an organization --
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. -- in terms of having any benefit from that
23 contract, you got 36,000 from the time it started in May of
24 2000 to now, right?
25 A. The billing from May until --
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1 Q. Now, 36,000, right?
2 A. Yes, sir. Or from the PREL contract?
3 Q. Yes. Well, when you say from the PREL contract,
4 what other contracts were you referring to?
5 A. Because, remember, my time is only 50 percent to
6 PREL and then I also function under the DOH contract as well.
7 Q. Oh, I see. You're still under the DOH contract for
8 the other 50 percent of your time?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Now, did Na Laukoa, I guess, accept any funds in
11 excess of any costs that were incurred that would be
12 considered a profit? Well, Na Laukoa is a limited liability
13 corporation, is it not?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Which means that it is not a not-for-profit
16 organization, right?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. So you try to gain a profit in whatever -- nothing
19 wrong with that. You try to gain a profit in whatever work
20 you do?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Did Na Laukoa make a profit from the PREL
23 contract --
24 A. No, sir.
25 Q. -- thus far?
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1 A. No, sir.
2 Q. Has it made -- has it suffered a loss thus far?
3 A. No. I wouldn't say a loss. I would say we're
4 holding. We're holding.
5 Q. Are you breaking even on this?
6 A. We're holding, Mr. Kawashima, meaning that we're
7 not -- we're holding.
8 Q. Now, I understand that there's still -- there is an
9 amount of funds that -- for services that Na Laukoa has
10 provided under this PREL contract --
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. -- for which payment has not been forthcoming, am I
13 correct? Well, let me ask this, ma'am. There's been
14 testimony that -- I think it was from the PREL person. Do
15 you know Mr. Burger, do you know him?
16 A. Dr. Burger, yes, sir.
17 Q. I think it was him, but it could have been either
18 him or Karen Ehrhorn who testified that they believe that
19 there were services performed by Na Laukoa, done, for which
20 PREL had not been billed?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Are you aware of that?
23 A. I believe there was a time that we had not billed
24 for a period of time, that's true, but I believe as of today
25 we're billed up to current.
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1 Q. And have you been paid up to current?
2 A. This is a -- because the contract is nearing,
3 there's a portion of $40,000 that's to be retained at the
4 end -- till the ending of our contract's completion to where
5 all our paperwork, our reports, our documentations, all our
6 TAC plans and transition things are turned in to PREL, and
7 then and only then will they release the remaining 40,000. I
8 believe our billing -- because the -- the services is
9 dwindling, we're not billing as much, so we need to hold off
10 our billing -- well, they can't -- they are not going to pay
11 us until they've retained the 40,000 just so we can follow
12 what is stated in our contract.
13 Q. Again, I could be wrong, but I thought I heard
14 someone testify, again, either Ms. Ehrhorn or Dr. Burger,
15 that the amount that had been withheld or not paid yet,
16 either because it wasn't paid or because it wasn't billed for
17 and therefore not paid, was in the realm of a hundred to
18 200,000. I could be wrong, but nothing like that?
19 A. Say that again?
20 Q. I believe there's been testimony that the amount
21 not yet paid to you folks, either because it just wasn't
22 billed yet and therefore not paid or it had been billed for
23 but not paid, was within the range of a hundred to 200,000,
24 not the 40,000 you're talking about. Am I wrong? Do you
25 think that person is not correct?
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1 A. As of today, before I left the office yesterday,
2 sir, I was informed by our accountant that we are billed up
3 through August and there is monies owed to Na Laukoa from
4 PREL, which PREL is now holding until we're complete and --
5 we're completed with our paperwork and stuff.
6 Q. How much is that amount that's being withheld?
7 A. Say again, sir?
8 Q. How much is that amount that's being withheld by
9 PREL?
10 A. Amount that's being withheld by PREL?
11 MR. BETHEA: Under the contract it was 40,000.
12 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Well, the 40,000,
13 Mr. Bethea, I think was the retainer that they were going to
14 retain.
15 MR. BETHEA: Right.
16 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: But I don't think
17 that's what she's talking about.
18 THE WITNESS: We have billed through the month
19 of August, Mr. Kawashima.
20 Q. Of this year?
21 A. Yes, sir, and due Na Laukoa at the present time is
22 about 22,000 right now.
23 Q. I see, okay. After that presentation took place on
24 or about July 7th of last year, ma'am, the subcontract with
25 PREL didn't come into being for about two months, two or
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1 three months, right?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. And when you went -- when Na Laukoa and its people
4 went to make its presentation to the people at DOE here on
5 Oahu --
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. -- PREL wasn't -- PREL in and of itself as part of
8 being in the contract wasn't in the picture yet, was it?
9 A. No, they weren't, sir.
10 Q. When did PREL come into the picture, to your
11 knowledge, ma'am?
12 A. I believe it happened shortly after the July
13 meeting with the DOE folks and after the final interview we
14 had with Dr. Groves before we had meeting with a bunch of
15 other DOE folks. It was sometime shortly after that.
16 Mr. Kawashima, I can't remember those exact dates, but that's
17 the sequence of events. It was the DOE folks first, which
18 included Bob Campbell -- no, no, sorry. Robert Golden,
19 Golden. Sorry, Bob Campbell. Robert Golden, Dr. Douglas
20 Houck, Dr. LeMahieu, and Paula Yoshioka, and then shortly
21 after that Dr. Ivor Groves had an interview with us.
22 Q. All right. And it was after that interview with
23 Dr. Groves that -- to your knowledge, that PREL came into the
24 picture?
25 A. And then PREL became a partner in the contract.
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1 Q. Who informed you that PREL was going to become a
2 partner in the process?
3 A. It was between Dr. Douglas Houck and Dr. LeMahieu.
4 Q. When you say between, was it both?
5 A. Because the conversations were hold -- were held
6 with both people. That's why.
7 Q. I see. Conversations were held with Dr. Houck,
8 first of all, right? Yes?
9 A. I have to be really clear about this,
10 Mr. Kawashima, because it can get somewhat confusing. After
11 the interview, the talk session with the DOE folks, then we
12 had an interview with Dr. Ivor Groves. Then shortly after
13 Dr. Ivor Groves, there was a discussion between Dr. Houck,
14 Dr. LeMahieu, and then PREL became -- came into the picture
15 and then Dr. Kimo took over and started working things out
16 with the PREL folks.
17 Q. I see. You didn't work things out with the PREL
18 people? It wasn't you?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Now, this meeting that Dr. LeMahieu --
21 A. Excuse me, Mr. Kawashima. I need to make clarity
22 here. When you say worked things out with the PREL folks --
23 Q. Go ahead.
24 A. I'm not sure what that means, but this is how I'm
25 going to answer you.
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1 Q. All right.
2 A. When you say worked things out with the PREL folks,
3 Kimo did the initial conversation with Dr. Tom Barlow to do
4 the protocol, to get things situated as to what we're going
5 to do and what we already have or what we've gone through, et
6 cetera, et cetera, and then Dr. Tom Barlow stepped in and
7 then before I knew it, Dr. Kimo and Dr. Tom were both running
8 with it, and then I didn't attend meetings until Dr. Kimo
9 told me that I had to show up.
10 Q. As far as -- there was a contract price for the
11 subcontract that Na Laukoa had with PREL, right?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. It was something over $600,000, right?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Am I to understand, then, as far as negotiating
16 what that price was going to be, that was done by others in
17 Na Laukoa than you? It wasn't done by you?
18 A. No, it was done between Dr. Rentz, myself, and
19 Candice.
20 Q. I see. So you were involved in negotiating the
21 price, then?
22 A. We were trying to work out as to what we thought as
23 to the idea we had as to what kind of monies we could
24 possibly spend and then we put it all together. Dr. Rentz
25 was the one that came up with these huge -- I mean what we
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1 ended up with was much less than what she first came up with.
2 I kept saying, hey, this is too much money, babe -- I mean
3 Dr. Rentz. We have to work at this. So we worked it down.
4 Q. Then who did you negotiate with at PREL, then, to
5 come up with a final price?
6 A. We went to Karen Ehrhorn and showed her our budget
7 and she was the person who we left it with.
8 Q. Who was it that told you -- well, strike that.
9 Do you understand that initially there was a
10 contract between the Department of Education and PREL to
11 provide targeted technical assistance, first of all?
12 A. Initially?
13 Q. Yeah, initially meaning before your subcontract was
14 entered into with PREL, before that, PREL had entered into a
15 contract with the Department of Education; you were aware of
16 that, weren't you?
17 A. Yes. Dr. Kimo and Dr. Tom started working on the
18 responsibilities portion of the contract and that's when I
19 knew it was coming about.
20 Q. But PREL had to sign a contract with the Department
21 of Education first, you knew that?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. And then after that, PREL then entered into another
24 contract, they call it a subcontract, with Na Laukoa?
25 A. Yes, sir.
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1 Q. Did you know that the first contract I'm talking
2 about had in it already a requirement that Na Laukoa be a
3 subcontractor? Did you know that?
4 A. That was my understanding, yes, sir.
5 Q. Do you know who was it that made a requirement of
6 that main contract that Na Laukoa be the subcontractor and no
7 one else, just Na Laukoa? Do you know who caused that to
8 happen?
9 A. You know, there were conversations between
10 Dr. Barlow, Dr. Kofel, and Dr. LeMahieu. So it must have
11 come out of that conversation.
12 Q. Dr. Barlow, he's with PREL, right?
13 A. Dr. Barlow, Dr. Tom Barlow and Dr. John Kofel.
14 Q. I see. Dr. John Kofel is the chief executive
15 officer of PREL, is he not?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. So there were discussions, to your knowledge,
18 between Dr. Kofel, Barlow, and LeMahieu that resulted in Na
19 Laukoa being the subcontractor on that main contract, right?
20 A. I wasn't present at any of those -- those
21 discussions. I believe Dr. Kimo was in discussion with
22 Dr. Tom Barlow at that time and then we became partners.
23 Q. But the meetings you mentioned with Barlow, Kofel,
24 and LeMahieu, you weren't in attendance at those meetings
25 also, were you?
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1 A. No, sir.
2 Q. And Kimo wasn't in attendance at those meetings
3 also, was he?
4 A. I don't believe so.
5 Q. So how did you learn, then, about these meetings
6 that took place between Barlow, Kofel, and LeMahieu? Who
7 told you?
8 A. I had later gotten a call from Dr. Tom Barlow
9 regarding -- PREL has a really beautiful protocol. They have
10 a wonderful way of making someone feel welcome. Dr. Tom
11 Barlow called to introduce himself and greet me to where we
12 were going to become partners, and that's how I knew about
13 it.
14 Q. I see. Now, you know that there were objections
15 that were made after that July 7th meeting about Na Laukoa
16 alone doing that contract. You knew that, right?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. In fact, there have been newspaper articles written
19 about that where the DOE student support services director,
20 Mr. Golden, felt that Na Laukoa was not qualified to do that
21 work. Do you agree with that statement?
22 A. I don't agree that Na Laukoa was not qualified,
23 sir, but I know Bob Golden was not pleased with Na Laukoa's
24 participation. He made it very, very obvious at the time of
25 the meeting, very obvious. We didn't know why, but he made
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1 it real obvious.
2 Q. Were you aware that Robert Golden was opposed to Na
3 Laukoa getting the contract -- only Na Laukoa getting the
4 contract because he felt that Na Laukoa couldn't handle a
5 contract of that size and also were not qualified? Were you
6 aware of that?
7 A. I was aware that he was not pleased with our
8 interview at that time. I was aware he wasn't pleased.
9 Besides his body language during the entire time of the
10 interview, I had heard and I had seen that he was not
11 pleased, because you know how gossip gets around, and gossip
12 got around real fast when it came to us, but he showed us
13 that day at the interview he was not pleased through the
14 whole interview, his whole body language, the way he spoke
15 with us. It was mainly mostly directed towards me. I think
16 because of my -- my not having a formal education bothers
17 people, and I think it bothers a lot of people. To do the
18 things I do and not have the proper credentials or the proper
19 formal credentials seems to bother people, and he made it
20 very, very known that day.
21 Q. Now, were you aware, though, ma'am, that when
22 Dr. LeMahieu was questioned about this that he agreed in part
23 with concerns that Na Laukoa could not deal with such a large
24 contract? Did you know that?
25 A. That Dr. LeMahieu?
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1 Q. Yes.
2 A. I believe -- may I answer it this way,
3 Mr. Kawashima?
4 Q. Sure.
5 A. I believe his concerns was handling the $2.3
6 million. We didn't know it was 2.3. All I knew was we had
7 660-something thousand dollars out of that contract, and then
8 the next time I heard there was a 2.3 number, that was the
9 total. I believe the concerns was because our -- Na Laukoa's
10 weakness in fiscal handling, and at that time we were. We
11 were.
12 Q. You were?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. You were weak in fiscal handling?
15 A. Yeah, because we're so koa'aina that money is not
16 really our priority but it needs to be, and we didn't handle
17 it as well as we were supposed to.
18 Q. Handle what, ma'am?
19 A. Handle our money as well as we were supposed to,
20 and they had right to have concern. We knew that this
21 project was a biggy and we knew it was going to do some
22 important work. So with PREL coming aboard, the way
23 Dr. Barlow welcomed us, it just gave us more self-confidence
24 that with their support we could make the project even more
25 successful.
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1 Q. All right. $2.3 million was probably much larger
2 than any contract you had handled before for Na Laukoa?
3 A. Well, sir, DOH, there were times when we'd handle 2
4 to 3 million a year with revenues when it came from Kapiolani
5 Health Hawaii and then DOH at the very beginning, but as
6 services dwindled within DOH, going to school-based services,
7 our revenue has plummeted down a little bit.
8 Q. You had handled contracts in the nature of $2
9 million?
10 A. Between 2 and 2.5.
11 Q. Before this Na Laukoa contract?
12 A. Through Kapiolani Health and DOH.
13 Q. Certainly, but through whoever it was, Na Laukoa,
14 prior to entering into that subcontract with PREL, had
15 handled contracts of the nature of 2 to 3 million dollars?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. 2 to 2.5, I think you said.
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. So this contract wouldn't have been different than
20 that in terms of size, would it?
21 A. You know something, Mr. Kawakami, I think -- well,
22 this is what I believe. I believe the whole object was to
23 build capacity and sustainability. Those were the two magic
24 words that the court monitor uses all the time. I didn't
25 completely understand it when he first said it at the Waimea
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1 School in 1996, when he said to build capacity and
2 sustainability in the state of Hawaii. As we grew and
3 learned within Kapiolani Health Hawaii and Department of
4 Health, we learned that we needed to learn capacity and
5 sustainability within Na Laukoa, and this was an opportunity
6 of learning from the best, and we feel and we are grateful
7 that PREL became a partner of this contract.
8 Q. You consider Na Laukoa to be fortunate to have been
9 included within that contract, right?
10 A. For us, sir, we're -- this is my true feeling,
11 Mr. Kawashima. Na Laukoa and PREL became partners, and I'm
12 grateful for the opportunity to have learned as much as we've
13 learned from PREL, and because of us being partners, them
14 having the resources that they have and us having the local
15 understanding and the mana'o of working in the trenches with
16 hands-on stuff, I think we made a really -- I don't think, I
17 know we made a really good partnership here.
18 Q. To your knowledge, ma'am, how did Na Laukoa get the
19 good fortune of being selected to do this work with PREL?
20 What's your understanding of how that happened?
21 A. It could have come through different avenues,
22 Mr. Kawashima. One with the talk stories within the DOE
23 system, finding -- from the school-based services, learning
24 as -- learning and hearing their concerns and stuff and then
25 being able to document it well through Dr. Rentz. Then --
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1 then talking story with Dr. LeMahieu, of course, I mean,
2 that's not a secret, with Dr. LeMahieu and Dr. Houck. And
3 then Dr. Kimo, I really truly believe that Dr. Kimo was the
4 main instrument as to us being awarded this contract because
5 of his diverse talents. I mean, he's so credentialed. He's
6 so talented. DOH hired him away from Na Laukoa. He's a very
7 talented young man, and I really truly believe that the major
8 thrust was because of Dr. Kimo's talents, and we were
9 fortunate to have him at Na Laukoa. So that in a whole
10 nutshell, we were really, really grateful that we got this
11 contract. It was another opportunity of showing the diverse
12 talents of Na Laukoa.
13 Q. Were you aware, though, that it was Dr. LeMahieu
14 who introduced PREL to Na Laukoa? Were you aware of that?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. So actually it was Dr. LeMahieu who introduced PREL
17 to Na Laukoa, as a result of which PREL was able to see what
18 talents you folks had, right? That's how it started, right?
19 A. I would have to say I believe that would be
20 accurate, Mr. Kawashima.
21 Q. I think Dr. Kofel in that same newspaper article
22 said that -- he was quoted as saying, and while LeMahieu did
23 introduce PREL to Na Laukoa, he, meaning Dr. Kofel, did not
24 stipulate that they receive the work, but he is suggesting
25 that that's how they got to know you, through Dr. LeMahieu.
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1 Does that sound right to you?
2 A. Well, that Dr. LeMahieu did the introductions, yes,
3 sir.
4 Q. The introduction, after which Kimo and whoever else
5 was involved showed them what abilities you folks had, right?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. And Dr. LeMahieu, at that point in time, knew that
8 you had never handled a contract of that size before?
9 A. I'm not sure if he knew -- because he never asked
10 us about what money levels we had handled.
11 Q. Actually, you had handled contracts larger than
12 that, hadn't you?
13 A. Yes, sir, but I don't think he asked us our -- what
14 numbers of monies we handled before the contract, but he did
15 ask after.
16 Q. After which contract?
17 A. No, I believe he had asked us the question as to
18 the numbers -- the money numbers. I believe he had asked us
19 after the contract started being processed if we had handled
20 that kind of monies before.
21 Q. Well, see, our understanding, ma'am, is that the
22 reason why PREL was even brought in was because of a belief
23 that Na Laukoa couldn't handle that size of a contract, that
24 size meaning the financial magnitude of the contract. You
25 see, so he must have known that before he brought in PREL, is
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1 what I'm saying.
2 A. Mr. Kawashima, I believe Dr. LeMahieu -- that may
3 have been one of his concerns, but it was also to build this
4 wonderful thing called capacity and sustainability, and
5 that's what -- that's what happened with PREL. I mean,
6 that's what happened with Na Laukoa through PREL.
7 Q. I think Dr. LeMahieu was quoted as saying, "They,"
8 meaning Na Laukoa, "have never done this before, that's a
9 true statement."
10 A. When did he make that statement, Mr. Kawashima?
11 Q. On or about May 13, 2001, an article written by
12 Alice Keesing in the Honolulu Advertiser.
13 A. I believe he would have made that comment at that
14 time because he did not know us through the revenues we had
15 handled, and I think he asked me about our revenues after the
16 contract when we had to put our paperwork in order with PREL,
17 and that may have been after August.
18 Q. But he said this on May 13th, you know, of this
19 year, not last year, ma'am. You see? But let me -- just to
20 be fair, let me read the whole thing. "They," meaning Na
21 Laukoa, "have never done this before, that's a true
22 statement, but here's an important thing to realize, if you
23 only give contracts to people who have done it before, then
24 no one new will ever learn to do it and the Big Island will
25 never have that capacity." That's what you were talking
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1 about, right?
2 MR. BETHE: I think she was talking about the
3 numbers. I think when he was saying you hadn't done this
4 type of contract before, you know, when you're going to hire
5 these TACs, you know, you had been in the school system, you
6 had done the Department of Health, but --
7 THE WITNESS: This -- I'm going to answer this
8 way, Mr. Kawashima.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. Maybe he was referring to hiring this many
11 technical assistants in that fashion, maybe.
12 Q. Maybe.
13 A. But at the same time we had fiscal weaknesses, and
14 as a protective measure PREL was to handle the administration
15 and the fiscal part to ensure success fiscally, yes, sir.
16 That's what I believe he meant.
17 Q. I see. Well, the only reason I ask is because in
18 this very same article reported by the reporter I believe
19 correctly, it says, "LeMahieu said he abandoned his plan to
20 contract with Na Laukoa directly because he agreed in part
21 with concerns that the company could not deal with such a
22 large contract."
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. Do you think he was talking about large meaning
25 people or large meaning numbers or both?
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1 A. I'm not Dr. LeMahieu. You've got to ask him that,
2 but I would agree with it. That would be fine with me.
3 Q. That would be a correct statement, wouldn't it?
4 What he says?
5 A. Under that context, yeah, I would think so.
6 Q. Now, let me move to another area. Prior to coming
7 here today testifying, other than any discussions you have
8 had with your attorney -- don't mention that. You don't have
9 to talk about that if it's only you and your attorney.
10 A. Thank you.
11 Q. Have you had conversations with anyone else
12 involved in this process about your testimony? In other
13 words, have you talked, for example, to Dr. LeMahieu,
14 Dr. Houck or anyone else like that?
15 A. Since the subpoena, no, sir.
16 Q. Since you have been subpoenaed?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. How about before you were subpoenaed but while this
19 process was ongoing?
20 A. No, sir.
21 Q. No discussions with anyone about this process,
22 about the legislative hearings?
23 A. Well, we talked about it in the office.
24 Q. Sure, sure.
25 A. You know, just conversation stuff.
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1 Q. How about anybody involved with the process from
2 the Department of Education's standpoint, whether it be
3 Dr. Houck, Dr. LeMahieu, or anyone else, any such
4 discussions?
5 A. No, sir.
6 Q. Now, in carrying out the requirements of the
7 contract with PREL, did Na Laukoa have to hire technical
8 assistants or was that something that was carried out by
9 PREL?
10 A. You mean a physical person to work in a physical
11 complex?
12 Q. I used the wrong term. Therapeutic aides I mean.
13 A. Did Na Laukoa have to hire therapeutic aides for
14 the technical assistance project?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. Well, I don't mean that you have to be
18 knowledgeable about it, but were you knowledgeable about what
19 has been going on in the legislative hearings up till now?
20 In other words, have you read newspaper articles?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Watched television accounts of what's been
23 happening here at the hearings?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Were you -- I think they run it live, but if not I
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1 stand to be corrected. Were you watching a hearing here last
2 week sometime where a Tina McLaughlin from CARE testified?
3 A. No. I'll be honest, sir. I tried to get the video
4 so I could see it, but no, I haven't, but I have heard
5 comments about it.
6 Q. You have what?
7 A. I have heard comments about it.
8 Q. How did you hear comments about it?
9 A. A friend named Jerry called me and a friend named
10 Jo called me after she had seen it.
11 Q. What did Jerry and/or Jo tell you about what they
12 had seen, as specifically as you can recall?
13 A. Tina gave testimony regarding a conversation that I
14 had with her.
15 Q. Oh, I'm sorry, I think that took place on Wednesday
16 of this week where Tina testified. In other words, days ago.
17 Does that sound right to you?
18 A. Well, you're talking about McLaughlin, right?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Whenever she testified --
21 MR. BETHE: It was the 17th.
22 THE WITNESS: -- that's the same day I got the
23 phone call.
24 Q. I'm sorry. What did they tell you, then, as
25 specifically as you can recall?
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1 A. What was printed in the newspaper about a
2 conversation we had in her truck. Her truck wasn't
3 mentioned. It was a conversation that we had.
4 Q. When you say her truck, what do you mean by that?
5 A. We had the conversation in her truck as she dropped
6 me off at my daughters's apartment.
7 Q. Where?
8 A. Here on this island.
9 Q. And how was it that you were in her truck?
10 A. My first meeting with Tina McLaughlin was May of
11 this year where we were invited to a luncheon at the Mandarin
12 to meet, and then the second meeting was at a dinner at a
13 mutual friend's home, and then the third was at a meeting in
14 her office. And I believe that particular conversation came
15 to be the evening that -- the evening after the day we had a
16 meeting in her office in her truck after dinner.
17 Q. I'm sorry, I want to make sure I get this right.
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. You first met her at a luncheon in May of this year
20 with a mutual friend. Who was the mutual friend?
21 A. His name is Dennis Shaw.
22 Q. And why did that meeting even take place, to your
23 knowledge?
24 A. Mr. Shaw felt it would be good, it would be nice,
25 it would be something good for both our companies or both of
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1 us or just the mere pleasure of each other's company to meet,
2 so we had -- Mr. Shaw hosted us to this beautiful luncheon at
3 the Mandarin where Dr. Kimo and I had attended to meet these
4 other people. At that time I thought it was networking to
5 see how Na Laukoa could maybe partner with more providers in
6 the state of Hawaii, because CARE has tons of providers, so
7 Kimo and I decided, okay, fine. We went after a PREL
8 meeting. We went to the luncheon. We had lunch with them.
9 That's when Tina McLaughlin was there, her husband, Dennis
10 Shaw, and another doctor, Dempsey.
11 Q. Dempsey?
12 A. Dempsey, thank you.
13 Q. So about six or eight people?
14 A. Something like that.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. And we shared and had lunch. It was just protocol,
17 just casual stuff. Nothing serious.
18 Q. How about that dinner, when did that dinner take
19 place?
20 A. The dinner took place shortly after that, maybe
21 about three, four weeks later, and it was at Dennis Shaw's
22 home.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. That's what I remember.
25 Q. And Tina McLaughlin was there also?
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1 A. At that dinner it was just Dennis, the McLaughlins,
2 Mr. and Mrs. McLaughlin, and myself.
3 Q. And then you say you had a meeting in her office?
4 A. And then from the dinner it came to be that we were
5 going to talk more about a possible project that she was
6 interested in implementing with the DOE, and for me to have
7 the opportunity to meet these two wizard boys from Punahou.
8 CARE has this awesome IMS system, intermanagement --
9 intermanagement system where these two boys from Punahou,
10 smart young men, they created this system specifically for
11 service providers such as myself.
12 Q. All right. So that meeting in her office was
13 shortly after the dinner meeting?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was it the day after?
16 A. No. Maybe -- geez, I can't remember exactly,
17 Mr. Kawashima.
18 Q. Okay, okay. And then you talked about a meeting --
19 a discussion in her truck?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Was it after this office meeting that there was
22 that meeting in her truck?
23 A. When the office meeting concluded, Tina took me to
24 dinner and we talked about a whole bunch of stuff, family,
25 business problems, finances, loans, Dr. LeMahieu. Yes, sir.
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1 Q. Why Dr. LeMahieu?
2 A. Well, because I've -- because she was -- she was
3 thinking that maybe there might be an opportunity of
4 introducing herself to him to possibly do some service work
5 with the Department of Education. We weren't exactly clear
6 as to what the total picture was going to be, and she thought
7 it might be good for her to come through me. I just simply
8 told her, I said, approach the man yourself. He's doing an
9 awesome job. Support this man. Support this man. I mean,
10 he's going to help us bring change to the system. Talk to
11 him yourself. He's easy to approach, and that was
12 Dr. LeMahieu.
13 Q. Was it your understanding, though, that Tina
14 McLaughlin was discussing this with you, the matter of
15 Dr. LeMahieu, because she wanted you to introduce her to
16 Dr. LeMahieu?
17 A. I wasn't totally sure what she was trying to do,
18 which is why I just kept saying that he was easy to approach
19 and help him, support the man.
20 Q. And your suggestion, though, that you felt that you
21 should tell Tina McLaughlin that he was easy to approach
22 suggests to me that what you were intending to tell her is
23 just go contact him, right?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. So obvious --
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1 A. That's what I told her. I simply told her, Tina,
2 go contact the guy. Don't involve me. Go yourself. Go meet
3 him.
4 Q. So it appears, therefore, that the reason you told
5 her that is because it appeared to you that she was asking
6 you to introduce her to the doctor? No?
7 A. You know, I wasn't clear, Mr. Kawashima, which is
8 why I just simply said, go talk story with him yourself.
9 Q. That was your response to what she was saying,
10 although it wasn't clear what she was saying?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Now, she mentioned some things, though. You're
13 aware of that in her testimony? She swore under oath that
14 you had asked her for a loan. Is that correct or not?
15 A. We talked about a loan, sir, and the way the loan
16 came up -- do I need to -- am I allowed to go into detail
17 here?
18 Q. I think so.
19 A. The way the loan came out was I was telling her
20 about our financial difficulties, and she had told me that
21 she had received an unconventional loan from a friend, and I
22 had asked if there was a possibility there. She had offered,
23 well, if she had the money, she would loan it to me. I
24 smiled and I said, mahalo plenty, but she didn't have it. So
25 that's how that came about.
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1 Q. And the problems with your company were what?
2 A. We were having financial problems at that time,
3 Mr. Kawashima.
4 Q. And were these financial problems, if I may ask,
5 related to problems with excise taxes and payroll taxes?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Were these problems that involved excise taxes and
8 payroll taxes of the magnitude of more than $100,000?
9 A. I'm not sure what the numbers were, but they were
10 pretty high.
11 Q. 200? As high as 200, perhaps?
12 A. I can't remember, sir.
13 Q. There were those problems that needed to be taken
14 care of?
15 A. There were financial problems, yes, sir.
16 Q. And she further testified that you suggested that
17 this whole process of setting up targeted technical
18 assistance was something that had been related to you by
19 Dr. LeMahieu that was done to help your companies.
20 A. Excuse me, sir?
21 Q. She testified that according to you, you had told
22 her that this thing of targeted technical assistance and
23 retaining Na Laukoa to assist had to do with why they -- I
24 should say had to do with your companies having these
25 financial problems and these financial problems having to be
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1 dealt with. Do you recall discussions of that type with
2 Ms. McLaughlin?
3 A. I'm not surely exactly what you're asking,
4 Mr. Kawashima.
5 Q. That's a long question, I know.
6 A. Yes, it is, sir, but at the same time this is my
7 recollection of the conversation.
8 Q. All right. Thank you.
9 A. Na Laukoa was having fiscal problems. We needed
10 additional cash. She had known of a person who had an -- who
11 loaned her an unconventional loan over a two-year period
12 where she could pay this person back in a quarterly payment,
13 which I felt that was something Na Laukoa could handle, but
14 there was nothing regarding that the -- you're saying the
15 targeted assistance project was to help me pay off my bills?
16 No, sir. I mean, how could that be, because we already had
17 the contract going.
18 Q. Let me correct myself. If I didn't make it clear,
19 ma'am, she testified that you had told her that way back when
20 this whole concept started, part of the reason was to assist
21 Na Laukoa with its financial problems.
22 A. She had said it in those words?
23 Q. Well, I'm paraphrasing obviously, but that's --
24 A. Mr. Kawashima, I don't believe I would have ever
25 said something like that for two simple reasons. One, it's
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1 not true. And two, why would I share something that intimate
2 with a stranger?
3 Q. Well, she also testified, though, that you informed
4 her that you had a close, intimate relationship with
5 Dr. LeMahieu.
6 A. I read the newspaper on that, sir.
7 Q. Did you not tell her that?
8 A. I told her that we were close friends. I never
9 mentioned the word intimate.
10 Q. All right. But let me ask you this. I need to ask
11 you this, unfortunately.
12 A. I know.
13 Q. Did you have an intimate relationship with
14 Dr. LeMahieu?
15 A. As so stated in the newspaper, we did cross the
16 line.
17 Q. We did -- all right. If I might ask you -- I'm
18 sorry. I need to ask you these questions, but when did that
19 crossing of the line begin?
20 A. It was a single time and it was the latter part of
21 October of last year.
22 Q. That one occasion?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Okay. Now, these points -- or this testimony that
25 was given by Ms. McLaughlin, we -- we were talking, you and
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1 I, about a discussion in the truck, okay. Now, I need to
2 cover the other meetings. There were several meetings that
3 you had where she was in attendance along with you and
4 others. The luncheon that Dr. Shaw put on in May of 2001,
5 the dinner I think at Dr. Shaw's home, and then of course --
6 A. Who is Dr. Shaw, sir?
7 Q. I'm sorry, who put on that dinner meeting, that
8 dinner thing?
9 A. I don't know if Dennis is a doctor, but I only knew
10 him as Dennis Shaw.
11 Q. I beg your pardon. The dinner was put on by
12 Mr. Shaw, then?
13 A. At his home, yes.
14 Q. So we're talking about -- that's the second
15 occasion you met her. The third occasion would have been at
16 a meeting at her office?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. And then of course she drives you in her truck to
19 your daughter's home?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In any of those meetings -- I'm not talking only
22 about in the truck now. I'm talking about the luncheon
23 meeting, the dinner meeting at the Shaws, or the office
24 meeting, in addition to discussion in the truck, in any of
25 those meetings were any of the things that I've been asking
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1 you about that I am telling you Ms. McLaughlin testified to,
2 were any of those areas of discussion had in any one of those
3 other meetings, not necessarily in the truck only?
4 A. The discussion of the loan?
5 Q. The loan, the discussion of the -- why targeted
6 technical assistance came into being, the discussion about
7 your relationship with Dr. Paul, all those things, any one of
8 those areas. Do you recall if they were also discussed in
9 the other -- on the other occasions on which you met with
10 Ms. McLaughlin?
11 A. On the first meeting it was simply protocol just to
12 get to know each other, to do just light stuff. On the
13 second meeting it was a little bit more intimate because they
14 were talking about the possibility of doing a DOE project.
15 On the third it was getting a little more serious because
16 they wanted to try to put something together and present it
17 to Dr. LeMahieu. The intimate discussions that you're
18 talking about -- I did not feel they were intimate --
19 happened in the truck when she was about to drop me off.
20 Q. All right. One last area, ma'am. Do you recall
21 having a telephone conversation with Tina McLaughlin after
22 she testified on Wednesday?
23 A. Not with Tina.
24 Q. With whom?
25 A. With Dennis Shaw.
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1 Q. Do you know if Dennis Shaw then had a discussion
2 with Tina?
3 A. This is what, Wednesday? I don't -- if it's
4 Wednesday as to when I -- Tina did her interview -- Tina did
5 her interview on Wednesday. I spoke with Dennis Wednesday
6 afternoon, and then Thursday, yesterday, Dennis relayed the
7 message of well wishes from Tina yesterday, I believe.
8 Yesterday.
9 Q. Let me ask you more directly, then, ma'am. I
10 understand that after Ms. McLaughlin testified that very same
11 day --
12 A. Wednesday.
13 Q. -- sometime that very same day --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- someone called her and threatened a lawsuit
16 because of her testimony. Okay. That same day. I'm just
17 making that statement. Was it you?
18 A. No, sir. Why would I want to do that with what she
19 said? That doesn't make sense to me, sir.
20 Q. So you have no quarrels with what she said?
21 A. Well, that's not necessarily true. The
22 conversation we had, we shared and she led me to believe that
23 it was something that would be held in private, but I would
24 never threaten her. What good would I have from that?
25 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off. In other
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1 words, you have no intentions of filing a lawsuit against
2 Ms. McLaughlin for what she testified about, right?
3 A. Do I have intentions to do that?
4 MR. BETHEA: I don't know.
5 THE WITNESS: I don't know why I would want
6 to, sir. May I ask a question, Mr. Kawashima?
7 Q. Sure.
8 A. This person who called -- well, you must have
9 received a phone call from Tina herself or someone close to
10 her regarding that phone call.
11 Q. I learned not from Ms. McLaughlin, but I learned
12 from someone else.
13 A. From someone else that Tina may have spoken to?
14 Q. Or someone gave her that information that you had
15 threatened to sue her for what she had testified to.
16 A. It's unbelievable what this world is coming to.
17 No.
18 Q. That's not true?
19 A. The only person I've spoken to in any relations or
20 any closeness to Tina McLaughlin was Dennis Shaw.
21 Q. And why would you speak to Mr. Shaw about her?
22 A. Because I asked -- I said, Dennis, what did Tina
23 do? What is this? And then he started explaining to me what
24 happened on Wednesday, and then I just closed my conversation
25 with Dennis by saying, just tell Tina I'm sending her my
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1 aloha. I send my thoughts to her.
2 Q. That was Thursday that you talked to Dennis Shaw?
3 A. That was Wednesday afternoon, the first time I
4 spoke to Dennis. The second time I spoke to Dennis was
5 yesterday.
6 Q. I thought after the testimony that Ms. McLaughlin
7 gave that you talked to two other people, Jerry and someone
8 else?
9 A. No, Jerry -- the two people that called me, they
10 told me what happened here from what they saw, yeah.
11 Q. Oh, I see. You did not say to either one of them
12 anything that would lead them to believe that you were
13 threatening a lawsuit, right?
14 A. No, sir.
15 Q. And you have no knowledge of anyone communicating
16 information to Ms. McLaughlin that you intended to sue her
17 for what she said?
18 A. Mr. Kawashima, I am Polynesian. We don't know how
19 to hate. I did not, sir.
20 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: All right, thank
21 you. That's all I need.
22 MR. BETHEA: For the record, she didn't ask me
23 anything about a lawsuit.
24 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Members, we've
25 been going over an hour, so we will recess for five minutes
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1 and when we return, members, you will have your opportunity
2 to ask your questions. Again, the five-minute rule will be
3 in place, and so that no one is taken off guard, we will be
4 taking questions in the reverse order. So we will begin with
5 the S's. Thank you. Back if five minutes.
6 (Recess taken.)
7 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: We'd like to
8 reconvene our hearing. We'll begin with questioning by
9 Senator Slom, followed by Representative Marumoto.
10 SENATOR SLOM: Thank you, Co-Chair.
11 EXAMINATION
12 BY SENATOR SLOM:
13 Q. Hello, Ms. Stocksdale.
14 A. Aloha.
15 Q. Aloha. How many employees do you have in your
16 company?
17 A. At present?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Present today?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. We have about 28.
22 Q. And they are broken down into full-time, part-time?
23 A. Right now the -- yes, broken down into full-time,
24 part-time.
25 Q. How many are full-time?
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1 A. I can't tell you that number, Mr. Slom. I didn't
2 remember it before I left the office.
3 Q. And prior to the contract -- awarding of the
4 contract, how many employees did you have at that time?
5 A. My employee count has been dwindling because
6 business has been plummeting down instead of going up, so I
7 can't tell you the exact numbers, sir. Sorry.
8 Q. You mentioned earlier that you are of the
9 entrepreneurial spirit.
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. And I'm just curious, in all of your business
12 activities, do you have any contracts or any clients that do
13 not originate from state or federal monies?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. And what kind of contracts are they?
16 A. Well, not contracts. Clients, I do.
17 Q. Clients?
18 A. Yeah, we do personal development classes with the
19 beauty queens.
20 Q. I see.
21 A. On the side. It's kind of the fun thing I do to
22 take me away from the reality stuff. That kind.
23 Q. You know, you talked a lot and we've talked a lot
24 about the targeted technical assistance, but I don't think
25 anyone has asked you what does that really mean to you? What
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1 does that term mean to you?
2 A. Thank you for asking that, Mr. Slom, very much. I
3 appreciate this because now I'll have an opportunity to
4 explain as to how I saw it. First I need to make a clarity,
5 Mr. Slom. In Na Laukoa we have two different entities, the
6 one entity is DOH providing outpatient services. Outpatient
7 services are the following: Like therapeutic stuff, like
8 individual, family, and group, we do biopsychosocial after
9 school programs, we do foster homes, and we do intensive
10 home-based services, along with the therapeutic aide service.
11 Under the PREL and DOE contract we do technical
12 targeted assistance. To me, technical targeted assistance
13 was always like running a production. It was to take a
14 critical eye, look at the problems, never mind excuses, find
15 solutions, find answers. The technical targeted assistance
16 was always the intention of working in the trenches, working
17 with the people in the complexes along side with them while
18 the people on the top got their act together and learned what
19 they needed to learn to start bringing the services down to
20 where we were at. Targeted assistance was meant to be a real
21 serious change within the system. It's a school change.
22 It's -- it's school attitude change. It's a whole cultural
23 kind of systems change. That's what targeted assistance
24 meant to me. And that's why I was intrigued by this because
25 it was -- because it was going to be -- you could actually
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1 make a change to make people do the job better. That's
2 number one.
3 Then number two, it was also for Na Laukoa to
4 learn, because -- well, you've got to remember, and I'm not
5 putting down what I am, okay, I'm a hula dancer. And I've
6 always had this drive to work with youth at risk kids because
7 I'm one of them, or was one of them. It's always been my
8 drive to give every youth in this state an opportunity to
9 have something better, and I thought this targeted assistance
10 could at least help the administrative people, the teachers,
11 and all the people in between to start seeing things
12 differently through people like myself. Look at me. I'm
13 Polynesian. I mean, I have no formal education, Mr. Slom,
14 but that does not mean I cannot have the drive to want to do
15 better for the other children like me. That's how come I was
16 intrigued with this target assistance stuff, because I
17 thought I could make a change, and if this most prestigious
18 committee takes a look at the data we submitted through PREL,
19 you'll see the changes we made.
20 Q. Did anyone independently audit your program results
21 that you're aware of?
22 A. When you say audit, what exactly do you mean by
23 that, Mr. Slom?
24 Q. You said you submitted information in telling us to
25 look at the results that you had. Has anyone else looked at
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1 your program and given their evaluation or audit of your
2 results?
3 A. No. We submitted our progress notes and our
4 monthly reports directly to PREL, and then PREL does all that
5 administration stuff. That was part of their responsibility,
6 to see the checks and balances, you know, check the numbers
7 and all that stuff. They've got that kind of resources to do
8 that work, which is why it's a blend. We knew how to do it
9 in the complex. They knew how to make it work from the
10 administration side. That we didn't know how to do.
11 Q. You've talked about fiscal weaknesses that your
12 company had, and certainly everybody knows about fiscal
13 weaknesses and all, but is it an accurate statement that had
14 you not gotten that contract, that Na Laukoa may not be in
15 business today?
16 A. If we had not gotten that contract, Mr. Slom, we
17 would have been suffering a little bit more than what we are
18 now. It would have been harder. It would have been harder.
19 Q. Did you have any other alternative contracts that
20 you were pursuing or other activities?
21 A. Yes. We have a couple other RFPs we've submitted
22 with the Department of Human Services and the Delayed
23 Dysfunctional Waiver Program.
24 Q. Just to get the time line straight on this. When
25 did you actually meet Dr. LeMahieu?
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1 A. It was in the year 1999 where my staff and I had
2 gone to Oahu to do protocol with them. He was being seen on
3 TV a lot. We were ready to present a program to school-based
4 services, and my clinical staff and I flew to Oahu. As
5 proper protocol when you're about to do business with
6 somebody, you go introduce yourself, and that's when we met
7 was in '99.
8 Q. You told Mr. Kawashima that in your conversation
9 with Ms. McLaughlin that basically all you were saying is
10 that if she wanted to meet him, that she could do that?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Directly?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. But earlier you said that you had a business
15 associate relationship with Dr. LeMahieu?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. And you are aware that Dr. LeMahieu in the press
18 previously had said that he did not have any other kind of
19 relationship with you?
20 A. I'm not clear on your question, Mr. Slom.
21 Q. I'm saying that Dr. LeMahieu had been asked whether
22 or not he had had any other kind of a relationship with you
23 which might, in fact, have influenced the awarding of the
24 contract.
25 A. And your meaning is?
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1 Q. Well, not a meeting, I'm just asking you are you
2 aware that those are the comments that he had made?
3 MR. BETHEA: I'm not sure I understand it.
4 THE WITNESS: Me too.
5 MR. BETHEA: Formal contract?
6 THE WITNESS: Are you talking about before the
7 contract, Mr. Slom, during the contract, or now?
8 Q. The comments were made just recently when certain
9 allegations had come forward, and what I'm saying is that
10 Dr. LeMahieu's comments were not the same as your comments
11 today to this committee.
12 A. About us having a business relationship in June of
13 last year?
14 Q. More than a business relationship, yes.
15 A. More than a business relationship in June of last
16 year? I'm not exactly sure what you mean, Mr. Slom.
17 Do you understand what he's saying?
18 Q. Ms. Stocksdale, were you aware when the PREL
19 contract came through that Dr. LeMahieu was in fact on the
20 board at PREL?
21 A. I had found out about that afterwards. I found out
22 about that afterwards. We had just been introduced to PREL
23 and things moved real quickly. Things moved really, really
24 quickly because something came down from the courts some
25 place, from the federal court, and things just started
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1 escalating like crazy, and then after things had settled down
2 a while, and I cannot tell you what the while was, Mr. Slom,
3 I had seen his picture on the wall when we went to the
4 meeting, and that's when I asked the receptionist, I said,
5 who are those people? How come Dr. Paul is on the wall, and
6 that's when she told me he was a board member.
7 Q. Thank you, Ms. Stocksdale.
8 SENATOR SLOM: Thank you, Co-Chair.
9 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank you.
10 Representative Marumoto, followed by Senator Matsuura.
11 EXAMINATION
12 BY REPRESENTATIVE MARUMOTO:
13 Q. Thank you.
14 A. Aloha.
15 Q. Aloha, Kaniu Kinimaka-Stocksdale.
16 A. Mahalo. You said it right.
17 Q. I'm wondering whether I have met you before?
18 A. I think we have, and I was trying really hard to
19 place you because I have seen videos of this hearing and I've
20 kept looking at your face like we've met. Were you ever a
21 fight attendant?
22 Q. Let's see, it might have been on the Big Island at
23 the Hawaii Educational Conference at Mauna Kea in April?
24 A. No joke? I mean yes.
25 Q. Were you there?
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1 A. Yes. Aloha again.
2 Q. Nice to see you again.
3 A. Mahalo.
4 Q. I was confused because I thought you were
5 introduced as Camille.
6 A. No, it's Kaniu.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. You folks have been saying my name in many
9 different ways.
10 Q. So sorry.
11 A. No problem.
12 Q. We'll get that right. I think Dr. LeMahieu was a
13 featured speaker at that conference; is that correct?
14 A. That was the year of --
15 Q. This year of April, 4th or 5th.
16 A. I don't remember, but maybe.
17 Q. I want to ask you about Dr. Almada, Almeda?
18 A. His name is Kimo -- Dr. Kimo Alameda.
19 Q. Alameda?
20 A. Yes, sir. I mean yes, ma'am.
21 Q. How did you meet Dr. Alameda?
22 A. Oh, gosh. Prior to him returning back home to the
23 Big Island he had heard about this Hawaiian -- this native
24 Hawaiian agency, and Dr. Alameda's heart is in the culture,
25 big time. He had done his interviews with the different
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1 agencies on the island, Hawaii Behavioral Health and TIFFE,
2 and then he came to us, and that's how I met him. He came to
3 talk story with us.
4 Q. Oh, I see. So no one referred him to you?
5 A. Well, you know about the coconut wireless, right?
6 It's all over the state of Hawaii.
7 Q. Definitely.
8 A. And I think the coconut wireless brought him to us.
9 Q. And you had said that if you had somebody with the
10 proper clinical credentials, then you could command higher
11 fees?
12 A. Well, when I said that, Ms. Marumoto, it was based
13 on this: In the state of Hawaii, to charge a fee, you need
14 to be licensed within the state of Hawaii. Ph.D.s can charge
15 pretty nice bucks doing hourly pay for services. They --
16 they get reimbursed quite a bit.
17 Q. So you said you needed a license to bill properly.
18 I think that was your term.
19 A. We -- yes, yes.
20 Q. So bill properly translates into more dollars,
21 actually?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. But may I also add this too? Bill properly with
25 the properly credentials. In the Department of Health you
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1 need to be credentialed by the Department of Health first.
2 Even though you have a license, you still need to be
3 credentialed by them in order to bill properly.
4 Q. I think one of the reasons you're here is that
5 there were some complaints about Na Laukoa not being
6 qualified.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Mr. Golden, as you said, was very unhappy about the
9 selection of your agency. Mr. Sakai said he had received
10 complaints. Mr. Yoshii also spoke in the same vein, so --
11 and many people had complained to them from the Big Island in
12 the various schools. So I just wanted to give you an
13 opportunity to perhaps answer some of these various
14 complaints and give you -- you could give your side of the
15 story.
16 A. Okay. Missed -- who -- who is your -- Yoshii,
17 who -- I don't know that person.
18 Q. He was in the Department of Education.
19 A. Did I meet him?
20 Q. Personnel, in charge of personnel apparently.
21 Mr. Sakai was the superintendent --
22 A. I know Mr. Sakai.
23 Q. -- the Big Island. Mr. Golden was the --
24 A. I know Bob Golden.
25 Q. -- person in charge of contracts. Well, anyway,
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1 you could just answer to any complaints that might have come
2 to you.
3 A. Okay. This is how I would -- this is how I'm going
4 to answer you. With Mr. Sakai I can understand because we
5 provided services right at Waiakea High School and I believe
6 he was the principal at that time. In fact, his school was
7 the school I provided the most services to to special needs
8 children. He even made -- he even helped us make
9 arrangements to have the special needs children come to my
10 facility. I can understand where he would have a complaint
11 because a few of our wawaes were -- our therapeutic aides was
12 a little bit much at that time.
13 Q. A little bit much?
14 A. Meaning that they were -- they were improperly
15 trained at that time, but I don't think he'd have a problem
16 with them now. I don't know the Yoshii person, man. Is it a
17 man? Man, right?
18 Q. It's a gentleman, but just answer to any complaints
19 that might have arisen that you know of.
20 A. Depending on the time that the complaints -- that
21 they may have heard the complaint, I can understand the
22 concern. We are grass roots and it took a lot of training to
23 get us to the level that we are today. Depending on who it
24 comes -- like if it comes from the DOH, there may be concerns
25 regarding our clinical oversight because there were concerns
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1 of our -- example: We had at one time not too long ago a
2 large amount of limas, clinical people, paper people, that
3 would provide services for Na Laukoa and that would end up
4 doing -- doing the service but not do the proper
5 documentation. We'd bill for the service and then when DOH
6 would come back and do an audit with us, they'd find that
7 there would be no documentation to match the billing. Okay.
8 And in turn, when that happens, DOH demands the money to be
9 returned back to them.
10 Q. Oh, dear.
11 A. Exactly. When there's no documentation to match up
12 the billing that we billed for certain services, and Na
13 Laukoa has had to go through that. That was part of our
14 learning process.
15 MR. BETHEA: Inadequate documentation.
16 REPRESENTATIVE MARUMOTO: My time is up, so if
17 anyone else wants to pursue this line of questioning, I'll
18 let them. Thank you.
19 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: We'll also
20 allow for follow-up questions, Representative.
21 Senator Matsuura, followed by Representative Leong.
22 EXAMINATION
23 BY SENATOR MATSUURA:
24 Q. Good afternoon.
25 A. Aloha.
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1 Q. You know, you talked about your clinical limas.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you talk a lot about the way that you use your
4 cultural immersion programs.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. The fact that you use -- you not only contract
7 native Hawaiian children, but a wide diversity of races, for
8 all children.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is your model actually a medical model, social
11 model, or is it a proven model?
12 A. No. No, I have to confess, Senator Matsuura, it's
13 a -- it's a model based on the essence of me being Polynesian
14 and my na'auao as to what feels right -- feels right.
15 There's no clinical term for feeling and doing what's right
16 by feeling right, and a lot of it is what you would call
17 nontraditional.
18 Q. But you mentioned that you need the clinical people
19 to charge more.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So do your clinical people understand the process
22 of -- that you're hiring understand the process or have
23 experience within that process?
24 A. Na Laukoa was created to find the mesh between the
25 western world and the cultural modalities, to put it together
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1 and see how we could mesh it, because we knew culturally that
2 working with the child would work better. What we didn't
3 know was how to bill for this culture with the rest of the
4 people paying for the service. So the clinical people had to
5 buy into it as well. So we found a comfortable medium to
6 where we addressed the clinical needs with also having the
7 cultural part built up to -- getting the clinical part was
8 the problem, was the problem of the child. The cultural part
9 was the strength of the child, and with that cultural part we
10 were able to, in many cases, overcome the problem of the
11 child because the child found him or herself feeling more
12 confident in themselves.
13 Q. So basically what you're saying is you used the
14 clinical people and you have your, what you call, wawaes,
15 your feet, handling -- they're basically your -- what you
16 said, and your comments about the criticism that you had, a
17 lot of your feet, your TAs, are basically high school
18 graduates.
19 A. They are paraprofessionals. The western term is
20 paraprofessional.
21 Q. How much time does your paraprofessionals spend
22 with each child?
23 A. Depending -- now, here's the western part.
24 Depending on the amount of authorizations given to us that's
25 allowed us to bill for is the amount of time that they spend
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1 with the child.
2 Q. So roughly how much hours is that per child?
3 A. It could vary depending on the intensity of the
4 child's needs. Like we may have a child that may need
5 services five hours a week, then we may have a high intensive
6 child, a high risk child that may need 20 hours a week. It
7 varies.
8 Q. So basically -- because I have a little --
9 basically what I'm getting at is because you mentioned that
10 your wawae, your paraprofessionals, use very strong language
11 against adults and teachers. I mean, you're using a
12 technique which -- we always complain that the federal
13 government does not reimburse us for a lot of the stuff --
14 A. No joke.
15 Q. We in turn, though, on the side of the federal
16 government, when I talk to them, they say we are not using --
17 like these models that we are using is not reimbursable.
18 These are not medical models; therefore, they are not
19 reimbursable. So we can use them all we want and complain
20 about the federal government not reimbursing, but if we're
21 not using professional licensed people or a medical model,
22 we'll never get the money from them anyway.
23 A. True.
24 Q. So when you say that they used strong language
25 against an adult, is that a fellow teacher that has spent a
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1 lot of time with the child? I can see where the conflict
2 with -- if you have someone spending five hours with the
3 child kind of telling off the teacher or the principal or
4 somebody else.
5 A. In some cases that may be true, but in Na Laukoa's
6 case, my wawaes -- and I say that possessively because I
7 adore them -- they were always trained to work on behalf of
8 the child, to advocate for the child, and in some cases when
9 a teacher is not listening to the child, my wawae will do its
10 best -- his or her best to approach the teacher and say, you
11 know, he doesn't understand what you're saying, he can't
12 comprehend what you're doing, or she doesn't want to be here,
13 can I just do something else with her so we can work it out?
14 And sometimes they are taken to sticking their nose
15 where they are not supposed to be or they have no paper, why
16 are they telling me this, or they are intruding into my
17 classroom, and my wawaes, they are not hilahila, they not
18 shy. They'll speak up and, say, hey, my job is to take care
19 of this child and this child needs blah-blah-blah, and then I
20 get a complaint. And that's something that I have to contend
21 with with some of my wawaes. But not as much now. It used
22 to be, in the beginning, mine used to rip off like crazy, but
23 now they are a whole lot better now. They are more demere --
24 is it demere?
25 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Demure.
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1 THE WITNESS: They are a whole lot more easy
2 to work with and talk to than they used to be. Before it was
3 not that case. Before they used to mouth off like crazy.
4 Q. I have one final question. I just need to ask this
5 one. You talked about the targeted technical assistance when
6 you met with Paul LeMahieu and Dr. Houck and you were trying
7 to brainstorm and I -- from -- I guess we can't talk to Ivor
8 Groves because he cannot appear before us.
9 A. So I'm told.
10 Q. But what I don't understand is where did Ivor
11 Groves -- Ivor Groves, apparently, you mentioned sent down a
12 report that said we're going to targeted technical
13 assistance, and then I'm coming to understand that
14 Dr. LeMahieu, Dr. Houck, and yourself were trying to devise,
15 understand what targeted -- so basically what did Ivor
16 have -- I mean, did Ivor say we should have a targeted
17 technical assistance program and not give the state any
18 guidelines as to what that was so we just make up our own?
19 A. Thank you for asking this question. The targeted
20 assistance program as to -- as to how I was first introduced
21 to it was a totally different concept that not even the guy,
22 Bob Golden, or the lady, Debra Farmer, understood. To be
23 honest with you, I didn't understand it until we actually got
24 our hands in the trenches. The whole concept was -- now,
25 you've got to remember, Golden and Farmer, they had this
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1 other concept because they were like at the top.
2 Q. I know I got the time, but Ivor Groves did not give
3 us any guidelines as to what the targeted technical
4 assistance program was? He just said we're going to have
5 this and everybody decided we're going to try to define it?
6 A. Now, that -- that's where things turn different,
7 because remember you're talking to me as to how I saw
8 targeted assistance.
9 Q. Yeah, but you also mentioned that LeMahieu and
10 Dr. Houck did not even understand what that is.
11 A. No, no, no. It was a brainstorming thing that came
12 to be between conversations as to what they wanted to see
13 done, Dr. Houck, Dr. LeMahieu. It was really kind of like
14 Dr. Groves and Dr. LeMahieu's brain child. It was like what
15 they wanted to see done in the system. Okay. Then when they
16 told me, Dr. Ellen, Dr. Kimo, and I started brainstorming as
17 to what we thought working from the trenches as to how we
18 would want to see it in the system. Do you understand? I
19 don't know if this is going to work.
20 SENATOR MATSUURA: Not quite, but I'll -- my
21 time has been way up. Thank you.
22 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Members, we'll
23 be allowing for follow-up questions after everyone has had
24 five minutes.
25 Representative Leong, followed by Senator Buen.
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1 EXAMINATION
2 BY REPRESENTATIVE LEONG:
3 Q. Aloha.
4 A. Aloha.
5 Q. I'll follow up with that question because I don't
6 think I quite understand what you are doing. I know you have
7 these wawaes and I know they're working with these children
8 and that some of them get a little impetus or a little bit
9 angry at this. I don't --
10 A. That was before, not now.
11 Q. Well, I don't understand what -- how do you
12 assess -- what are the things they need to understand to do?
13 Do you have something drawn up for them or is it written down
14 or is it merely oral communication and how do you assess
15 them? Could you just give me an example of that?
16 A. Are you talking about the therapeutic aides or are
17 you talking about targeted assistants?
18 Q. Targeted assistants.
19 A. Targeted assistants. If you're talking about
20 targeted assistants, they are not therapeutic aides. They
21 are highly qualified individuals. If you look at the data
22 that PREL has submitted to you, they are master's levels and
23 above, because that's where the paper came in. We needed to
24 ensure -- Dr. Kimo put components in place to be sure that
25 there would be no question as to the validity of the
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1 qualifications of the technical assistants. We call them
2 TACs. They are master's level and above. The unique thing
3 about these TACs was how we hired them, how we did the
4 interviews with them, how we asked them the questions and how
5 we felt -- how we felt from what they responded to our
6 questions.
7 This was based on them having the following, and
8 this is what we -- besides having the paper, the paper
9 meaning the paper, the credentials. Okay. Besides having
10 that, we needed them to have tenacity, because tenacity was
11 something they had to go -- like big armor going into layers
12 of bureaucracy they had to work through in the DOE system.
13 Q. Okay, excuse me. Thank you. You just referred
14 back to therapeutic aides. How were they informed as to what
15 they were going to do? These are therapeutic aides.
16 A. The therapeutic aides, they come under the DOH
17 contract of Na Laukoa. The therapeutic aides are used like
18 mentors. In the olden days, meaning like five, six, seven
19 years ago, the therapeutic aides were like baby -- they could
20 have been baby-sitters, they could have been caregivers to
21 work with the child therapeutically to help the child work
22 out of his or her problems. Today -- the therapeutic aides
23 that I know of today from how we have been trained and we
24 have been taught by Department of Health and all other --
25 these various other consultants that come into the state that
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1 we attend their trainings, we attend their meetings, we
2 attend their workshops, the therapeutic aides of today, their
3 job is to work with the child and try to get the child to
4 open up, to release whatever the problem is within the child,
5 but in Na Laukoa makes us a little bit different is the way
6 we work it, the way we go to the problem, we go through the
7 strengths of the child. If the child likes art, we work with
8 the child through art. If the child likes singing, we work
9 with the child through singing. If the child likes surfing,
10 we work with the child through surfing.
11 Q. Are these therapeutic aides paid or are they just
12 doing it for --
13 A. They are paid.
14 Q. How much are they being paid?
15 A. They can -- in Na Laukoa they pay between 8.50 an
16 hour to $15 an hour.
17 Q. Thank you. I think that's all I need to know.
18 Thank you.
19 A. I thought you were going to ask me about Molokai?
20 Q. No, I didn't ask about Molokai.
21 A. Mahalo.
22 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank you very
23 much. Senator Buen, followed by Representative Kawakami.
24 SENATOR BUEN: Thank you, Co-Chair Saiki
25 EXAMINATION
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1 BY SENATOR BUEN:
2 A. Aloha.
3 Q. Aloha, Ms. Stocksdale. I believe that you said
4 that the Na Laukoa -- yourself and Na Laukoa staff provide
5 for special needs children the cultural way of looking at
6 their strengths and the cultural way of providing services to
7 these children.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Ms. Debra Farmer from the Department of Education
10 came before us and testified that DOE, herself, and the staff
11 had provided training for Na Laukoa.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And how long was that -- well, first of all, what
14 kind of training was provided for Na Laukoa?
15 A. Okay. Ms. Buen, I have to first tell you so --
16 because I want to be really honest at this thing. I have to
17 be honest or somebody going to slap me. I did view the
18 videotape of Debra Farmer and I did hear -- I don't remember
19 everything, but I remember why -- I remember I think about
20 why you're asking this question. As Na Laukoa-DOH contract,
21 we already knew the 504, the IDEA, the IEP, Chapter 56,
22 Chapter 19. We had to. We had to know that or we couldn't
23 provide the DOH services. We just couldn't.
24 As Na Laukoa under the PREL-DOE contract as TAC --
25 TAC assist coordinators -- remember that we were the
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1 coordinators of these 15 TACs that went into the different
2 complexes. At Na Laukoa, under the targeted assistance,
3 although the TACs came to us with the basic knowledge, Na
4 Laukoa, Dr. Kimo, wasn't going to take a chance to assume --
5 you know what the word assume means? You make okole out of
6 you and me. We don't assume at this high level for this kind
7 of people for what we wanted to accomplish in the complexes.
8 So we had an orientation period.
9 We had an orientation period with PREL and Dr. Kimo
10 coordinating a series of workshops which we thought, okay, it
11 can be called training too, where one day DOE personnel came
12 in and wampa, they just came on us one whole day, and we had
13 like an hour and a half here, hour here, hour and a half
14 here, hour here, and we took a whole day, which ended up
15 being like nine hours, of DOE people and that's what Debra
16 Farmer did for us.
17 Now, to be very fair, too, Debra Farmer did play a
18 role in the executive management team as well. She did
19 attend meetings to where she made her comments and voiced her
20 concerns about the TACs just starting to get into the
21 complexes. Now, this is all in the beginning. You're not
22 going to hear that now. You're not going to hear that from
23 two months ago, but in the very beginning we had to -- we had
24 to make mistakes to figure out if we're doing the thing
25 right. So in the beginning, yes, she did attend a lot of
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1 meetings and she did give a lot of feedback to Dr. Kimo, but
2 that was the only way we could get the answers from DOE, was
3 getting from the division people who knew what we had to do
4 or what needed to be done at the bottom. Dr. Kimo took the
5 information, and this man being so smart like he is, he took
6 the info, turned it around, we talked about it, and then we
7 implemented what we thought would be best, and that's what we
8 had to do.
9 Q. Thank you. How long was this training provided for
10 Na Laukoa?
11 A. Now, Na Laukoa the coordinator or the TACs as part
12 of Na Laukoa's coordinating?
13 Q. According to Ms. Farmer, there was training
14 provided for three to four months. Now, is that --
15 A. I heard that on the tape.
16 Q. So is that true?
17 A. I don't remember two to three -- three to four
18 months, Ms. Buen. I don't remember that, but I do remember
19 her being at meetings. So maybe that might be part of it as
20 well. I do remember that we attended a lot of other meetings
21 outside of DOE. Dr. Kimo and I made sure -- mainly Dr. Kimo,
22 he made sure that any type of training that was coming into
23 town, any master's consultants that was brought into the
24 state, we tried to get our TACs into it so the TACs would
25 have the freshest, the most accurate information to get it to
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1 their complexes. That's how we handled it. We were
2 proactive. That was part of the being the TAC coordinator.
3 So we listened as well as to what was coming into the state
4 or what was being offered, service testing, differential
5 testings or workshops or whatever, we were proactive to get
6 the TACs into those trainings to get them in the complexes.
7 That was our job as coordinators.
8 Q. I have another question here. Are you anticipating
9 an extension of the contract?
10 A. As I sit here today, no. We're told that there's
11 no money. Shucks. Because we're not pau. Our work's not
12 pau yet. It's not pau. We've got a few more schools that
13 need this kind of assistance, and then -- then that magic
14 word that Dr. Groves keeps saying, capacity and
15 sustainability, we'll have it implemented in the schools,
16 because what the TACs are doing, they are getting the people
17 in the trenches to talk to each other, which they've never
18 done before. They are getting them to talk to each other to
19 collaborate, to share, to work together.
20 My God, I mean, they never talked to each other.
21 They were so afraid of territorialism, control, losing
22 control, attitude, egos. They had to work through all those
23 layers. That's why the targeted assistance was to help give
24 them some kind of self-confidence and assistance knowing that
25 there was somebody else that could take the gut from them,
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1 somebody that could take whatever they didn't want but also
2 go finding information and bring it back. And that's what --
3 that's what Kimo did. Kimo and the present lead coordinator
4 is Carol Plumber, these two leaders of the TACs, whatever the
5 TACs needed in complexes to go find information, they went
6 in. They also went to talk with the administrative people to
7 see what was lacking.
8 Believe me, we weren't perfect. We made plenty of
9 mistakes, but with mistakes we learned from them. We were
10 able to grow, and that's why people just don't understand.
11 People didn't understand what the TAC concept was. When
12 Dr. LeMahieu had said it was different, there was a
13 comment -- there was a comment in one of these videos that
14 said the TAC project will die a natural death. Okay, I
15 didn't like it because that kind of led me to think that,
16 okay, we're going to mess up. It didn't die. It actually
17 got into --
18 Q. Thank you.
19 A. -- solutions.
20 Q. I'm sorry, but my time is up, and I do appreciate
21 what you're trying to achieve. I have some other questions
22 here, but I think I'll ask them later if I do have time
23 later. Thank you.
24 A. Mahalo.
25 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank you.
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1 Representative Kawakami, followed by Vice-Chair Kokubun.
2 REPRESENTATIVE KAWAKAMI: Thank you very
3 much, Chair Saiki.
4 EXAMINATION
5 BY REPRESENTATIVE KAWAKAMI:
6 A. Aloha.
7 Q. Aloha. I take it you were born on Kauai?
8 A. No. I was born on Oahu but raised all my life on
9 Kauai. We have 16, nine boys, seven girls. Papa thought
10 that the girls should stay on Kauai because Oahu was becoming
11 sin city, so he sent his virgins to Kauai and kept the boys
12 on Oahu.
13 Q. So you were there at a very young age?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And graduated from Kapaa you mentioned?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I wanted to know how did you come to choose the
18 name Na Laukoa and what it means?
19 A. Na Laukoa. It was given to us by a very special
20 woman to me. Her name is Pua Kanakaole Kanahele. I went to
21 her and her husband Uncle Edward, when Uncle Edward was
22 alive, and I had to ask them -- because I couldn't understand
23 how come so many Hawaiians was in our population, in special
24 needs, and in the olden days they didn't separate them or
25 segregate them. They -- everybody was treated the same, but
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1 when they were different, they were just treated a little bit
2 different, a little bit more special. So when I went to
3 Aunty Pua and Uncle Edward I had asked -- I needed a name for
4 us, not just for the youth that we serve but for the
5 paraprofessional like myself that serve these youth. Na
6 Laukoa in Hawaiian means to prepare for flight like young
7 fledglings, so the whole concept of Na Laukoa has been as you
8 function as a human, you know, you fall down, you stand up
9 again, you pick up and you wipe yourself off and you take off
10 again. That's what it means. It means to prepare for flight
11 like young fledglings.
12 Q. And you also used the neck, the 'a'i?
13 A. 'a'i.
14 Q. 'a'i, and that was the financial person?
15 A. Choke, yeah. When we don't have the money, we
16 choke, yeah.
17 Q. And you are ke po'o, and ke po'o means number one.
18 My daughter's --
19 A. I don't know if it's number one, but it mean head.
20 Q. Yeah, head or number one. My daughter's dog is ke
21 po'o because he's number one in our family.
22 A. Oh, my.
23 Q. Anyway, I wanted to ask you, how well did you know
24 Dr. Monger? Because he was the first one doing this kind of
25 work and he was, you know, on various islands before he left.
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1 Now, he didn't stay very long.
2 A. No, he didn't.
3 Q. So did he influence you or encourage you to get
4 into special needs?
5 A. I think it all started at the Waimea cafeteria.
6 That's where all of this started, and it kind of ticked me
7 when they said they would bring these professionals to teach
8 us cultural sensitivity from the mainland, and it kind of got
9 me a little bit perturbed as far as -- and that's why I stood
10 up and said what I said, and looked at him, and then
11 afterwards he sought to seek me out to ask me who I was, to
12 talk story, and we talked a little bit and we were going to
13 do something. He sent me a letter to ask me if I would
14 coordinate a cultural sensitive day. Of course it didn't
15 materialize because he left, and people start off with good
16 intentions, but, you know, they kind of waiver off after a
17 while.
18 But what had swayed me was this, the haole man,
19 Dr. Ivor Groves, my first introduction to him of just seeing
20 him on that stage is what he said about capacity and
21 sustainability. I didn't know what those two words meant
22 until I went home and I checked the dictionary and I couldn't
23 figure out what he was talking about, but then as I started
24 listening -- as I started listening to people talking about
25 capacity and sustainability, capacity and sustainability, I
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1 started thinking, hey, wait a minute. There has to be
2 something to this thing. I was more concerned about the
3 children like me, because the population was more like me,
4 and from that and those words I started -- started working
5 towards those words. And that, again, brings me back to the
6 target assistance, because I thought that would be a way to
7 help the system to change so our -- my kind wouldn't be left
8 behind. That's where that started from. And that was like
9 '95, '6, '7, some place around there.
10 Q. Thank you very much. Another question, who
11 oversighted the work that you've been doing?
12 A. You mean me myself or Na Laukoa?
13 Q. No, the Na Laukoa.
14 A. For the technical targeted assistance?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. For the technical targeted assistance who oversaw
17 Na Laukoa's services was PREL.
18 Q. So they periodically came to the island to check,
19 et cetera?
20 A. PREL had a real introduction into Na Laukoa's style
21 of protocol. Yes, they came to the island and had meetings
22 with us.
23 Q. How often?
24 A. I'd say through the contract they came once to the
25 Big Island, but you have to understand, too, Ms. Kawakami,
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1 the bulk of the work was being done Oahu. They had the
2 facilities to handle us at one time when all the TACs came in
3 from the state. We had our meetings, but we did that
4 monthly. Sometimes we'd do it -- occasionally -- there's a
5 couple of times we did it twice because there was such a big
6 thrust happening in the complexes that we needed to get
7 information out to the TACs quickly, so there was a couple of
8 times we had a couple of meetings at PREL in one month, but
9 PREL did honor us to come to the Big Island one time, yeah.
10 Q. Just closing out, since my time is up, but I just
11 wanted to say, I think your intentions are good. You said
12 you want to do better, you know, the idea of making changes
13 in the lives of children in their culture. That's what
14 your --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- your whole thrust is?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I commend you for that.
19 REPRESENTATIVE KAWAKAMI: Thank you very much,
20 Chair.
21 THE WITNESS: Mahalo.
22 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank you.
23 Vice-Chair Kokubun, followed by Representative Ito.
24 VICE-CHAIR SENATOR KOKUBUN: Thank you,
25 Co-Chair Saiki.
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1 EXAMINATION
2 BY VICE-CHAIR SENATOR KOKUBUN:
3 Q. Hi, Kaniu.
4 A. Aloha, Russell. I mean Senator Russell. Sorry.
5 Q. I wanted to ask a little bit about the contracts
6 that you had for the Kapiolani Health Demonstration Project,
7 and you said that that was about two to two and a half
8 million dollars?
9 A. There was a combination going from -- of Kapiolani
10 Health Hawaii going into DOH. They had done it in the same
11 year, so our gross income at the end of that year amounted to
12 about two million, two million plus.
13 Q. But the Kapiolani Health demonstration part
14 actually ended, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is that why DOH took over?
17 A. Yes, yes. Kapiolani found that it was more than
18 what they had bidded for and what they were able to handle.
19 Q. Do you know if that was a nonbid contract?
20 A. No. It was -- I think it was a closed kind
21 contract where you didn't do it publically. You just did it
22 closed type like. They were to submit -- sealed bid. A
23 sealed bid, I think is what it was called.
24 Q. That would imply, then, that it was a bidded
25 contract, so people would put in their own bid for the
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1 services. So you were like a sub -- was this Na Laukoa at
2 that time?
3 A. We didn't have to bid for it, sir. The people who
4 bid for it were the people who was going to take over the
5 contract from the DOH. We became service providers -- see,
6 we became active -- Na Laukoa was given birth to at the time
7 of the Kapiolani Health Hawaii Demonstration Project. We
8 became service providers to them by submitting an RFP to
9 Kapiolani Health and we were one of many that was accepted.
10 Q. And so when the Department of Health took over,
11 they just -- I assume that was like a subcontract that you
12 had with Kapiolani Health?
13 A. Yes. And then we then did another contract with
14 the DOH. It was like a pass through I think they call them,
15 pass through.
16 Q. Do you recall who the principal was with Kapiolani
17 Health that you dealt with?
18 A. The principal?
19 Q. Yeah.
20 A. Define for me principal.
21 Q. Well, whoever -- the person that you interacted
22 with in terms of what was expected of the contract and --
23 A. Just like DOH, they had different layers, but the
24 ones I spoke with, we had to do our interviews and stuff
25 with, was Dr. Linda Fox and Dr. -- oh, I forget his name. He
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1 looked portuguese-haole, black hair, black eye rims. I just
2 lost his name, but those were the two that -- that I spoke
3 directly to besides the contracts people.
4 Q. And when the contracts switched to Department of
5 Health, who was the principal person you dealt with?
6 A. I believe our contract then went to -- I believe it
7 was still under Richard Monger at that time. I want to say
8 Richard Monger, but I cannot remember exactly, sir.
9 Q. Do you know what division of the department that
10 was under?
11 A. Well, it would have to go through contracts first
12 and then the next department we would be working with is
13 clinical, clinical services.
14 Q. Which division of Department of Health, do you
15 know?
16 A. Child and Adolescent Mental Health. I'm sorry.
17 Child and Adolescent Mental Health.
18 Q. You also mentioned after you did the July
19 presentation at DOE you had an interview with Dr. Groves?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What was the substance of that interview?
22 A. His concerns about Na Laukoa having the whole
23 contract, I mean being -- being the contractee. He saw --
24 this is -- I was never told all the details. This is what
25 happened. Dr. Rentz, Dr. Kimo, and myself went to this
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1 meeting, and in the meeting we had Dr. LeMahieu, Dr. Groves.
2 I can't remember who the other DOE parties were. It may have
3 been Ms. Yoshioka and maybe a couple of other DOE folks, and
4 in that meeting -- it was not an easy meeting. Nobody likes
5 to sit there and be told up -- right in front of your face up
6 and personal as to things -- as to your deficits. Dr. Rentz
7 and Dr. Kimo had to defend themselves in ways that they were
8 not accustomed to. I, on the other hand, I had to just do
9 what I had to do because it was something that we wanted.
10 Q. Kaniu, was Dr. Groves the interrogator or the
11 questioner?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So he was -- in your opinion, he was very strict in
14 terms of --
15 A. He was more than strict, Senator Kokubun. He was
16 more than strict. He was straight up front and darn right
17 direct.
18 Q. And subsequent to that meeting, then, or that
19 interview with them, then the whole concept of the PREL
20 contract came about?
21 A. Yes. I honestly feel then, as I do today,
22 Dr. Groves would not let Na Laukoa be involved if he did not
23 think we could have been good partners with PREL. I really
24 believe that.
25 Q. So then, you know, it was mentioned earlier also
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1 that the contract with PREL predetermined that Na Laukoa
2 would be the provider for this?
3 A. Predetermined, what does that mean?
4 Q. Na Laukoa was identified in the PREL contract as
5 that entity which would provide the targeted assistants.
6 A. I know that's how it happened and that's how it
7 turned out. That much I know.
8 Q. So I guess I'm asking, that happened after the
9 meeting -- interview with Dr. Groves?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is it your understanding that it was Dr. Groves
12 that inserted Na Laukoa as the provider?
13 A. I think it was a combined effort of both
14 Dr. Groves, Dr. LeMahieu, and whoever else was in that room
15 that I don't remember, because we could not have gotten this
16 contract if Dr. Groves was not happy with it.
17 Q. I realize that, but it seems -- you know, it seems
18 that someone specifically identified Na Laukoa as a provider
19 for these -- the TACs, and so I'm just trying to determine
20 who made that -- who made that determination, but if you
21 don't know, you don't know.
22 A. I'm sorry, Senator Kokubun, I cannot answer that
23 honestly because I don't know. I know we participated, but I
24 don't know who was the final determinator. I cannot answer
25 that honestly.
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1 Q. You also -- just a side note. You also realize
2 that the scope of services for the contract with Na Laukoa --
3 the subcontract with Na Laukoa were the same scope of
4 services as the contract for PREL, you realize that?
5 A. They are very similar, yes.
6 Q. They are identical, actually. Were you aware of
7 that?
8 A. I wasn't under the impression it was identical. I
9 thought it was very similar because the functions -- the
10 functions were different. The functions were really
11 different, which is why I never thought that -- it was
12 identical, and I never took the time for compare.
13 Q. That was one of the concerns that were raised when
14 we saw that in the PREL contract.
15 A. Like two people doing the same thing?
16 Q. Exactly. That's why the --
17 A. Am I able to give some clarity regarding that,
18 Senator Kokubun? It may have been identical on the paper on
19 the contract, but the functions were really different. The
20 whole concept was really different. It was a critical eye
21 that DOE has never had before.
22 Q. I don't disagree with that, Kaniu. I guess what
23 I'm saying is a contract is a legal binding relationship, an
24 agreement.
25 A. I understand.
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1 Q. And when we looked at those two contracts, they
2 were similar. So for myself, I'm trying to determine who had
3 responsibility for what, when did -- you know, why was Na
4 Laukoa identified as a subcontractor prior to the signing of
5 the contract, but thank you.
6 A. You're welcome.
7 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank you
8 Vice-Chair. Representative Ito, followed by Vice-Chair
9 Oshiro.
10 REPRESENTATIVE ITO: Thank you, Co-Chair
11 Saiki.
12 EXAMINATION
13 BY REPRESENTATIVE ITO:
14 Q. Aloha, Mrs. Stocksdale.
15 A. Aloha, Representative Ito.
16 Q. You know, Mrs. Stocksdale, you mentioned that you
17 have 28 people working for you?
18 A. Now I do, yes.
19 Q. Did you service the whole 15 complexes?
20 A. Oh, may I make some clarity here, please, sir? In
21 Na Laukoa we have 28 people under the DOH contract. In Na
22 Laukoa's technical assist, we have myself, at present -- are
23 we only talking present now, Mr. Ito?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. At Na Laukoa at present we have myself and our
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1 accounting people and a technical assist, like a support
2 person, that's presently working on the PREL contract.
3 Q. What about previous to maybe six months ago?
4 A. Previous to six months ago we had a lead
5 coordinator. Now, we're talking employees, right, sir?
6 Q. Right.
7 A. We had a lead coordinator and one TAC, myself, the
8 technical support person, and the fiscal people.
9 Q. You know, I was looking at this budget that you
10 folks have with the charter schools, and there's four charter
11 schools and you folks have a coordinator. When we talked to
12 Mr. Burger the last time he mentioned that there was no
13 contact with those charter schools.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you explain?
16 A. Well, the intention was to put them in there in the
17 event they decided to materialize so we could do technical
18 assistance there as well. I believe we all -- between PREL
19 and Na Laukoa we prepared for the possibility of it
20 happening, but we were never really given direction as to
21 jump on it, get going. I inquired with Mr. Higgins, Mr.
22 Chuck Higgins, who is in charge of charter schools. I would
23 make phone calls to him to talk story with him to see what
24 the status was going and all of that. At that time it was
25 still going through the process of becoming charter schools,
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1 and we were never given the go ahead to do the charter
2 schools.
3 Q. What about you mentioned ALC?
4 A. Alternative learning centers?
5 Q. Yes. You know, the DOE, we already have ALC
6 centers and SMC.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Special motivation.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And it's already budgeted in the DOE budget.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So what is this? Are you folks having another --
13 is this an off campus site?
14 A. Okay. Mr. Ito, I need clarity here. The ALC, when
15 I had mentioned ALC, it was through -- it was doing the
16 motivational classes I would do as an individual. I don't
17 believe there's an ALC portion in the targeted assistance
18 contract, sir.
19 Q. Oh, okay. So that's the clarification, then,
20 because I know you mentioned ALC.
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you. You know, I was looking at this
23 PREL contract. The thing was what, 2.3 million?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. And you folks got awarded $688,245?
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1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. So PREL, you know, made out $1,611,755?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. And you mean to tell me they only visit you only
5 once?
6 A. I'm sorry for laughing. You know why? We had
7 intentions to kind of go back and forth each month so they
8 can come to our house and we go to their house, but it never
9 worked out that way because timing was bad or the TACs were
10 really busy or we got busy, et cetera. It just seemed more
11 reasonable and more functional, time saving and cost
12 effective for us to go to them. So that's why we spent more
13 time there so the TACs -- so we could hit the TACs.
14 We were so proactive in this project. Any time we
15 were on Oahu, we had meetings with the TACs so we could have
16 the TACs get together and share information so one TAC did
17 good on one complex and the other complex didn't know what
18 was going on so this TAC would share. That's how we were
19 able to get them to feed into their complexes stuff that was
20 amazing. I mean it was just really super fast. That's how
21 proactive this project was.
22 So they only came our house one time, and we didn't
23 mind it, to be honest with you, because it was more important
24 for us to be where we could get all the information to the
25 TACs quickly, so that's why we went to Oahu a lot, but yeah,
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1 it would have been better if they came our house. They came
2 the first time, we took them on a horseback ride. The second
3 time we were going to take them go eat Hawaiian food or
4 something, but it didn't work.
5 Q. You know, they came over here and testified in
6 glowing terms, you know, and when you look at this, it seems
7 like you folks did most of the work and, you know, PREL -- I
8 mean, one million dollars and -- $1,611,000, I -- you wonder
9 sometimes.
10 A. May I make a comment there, please, Mr. Ito? The
11 1.3 million was based around the TACs being hired. Remember,
12 Na Laukoa's fiscal stuff was weak. They hired on the TACs.
13 They took care of the taxes to make sure that taxes were
14 always taken care of and all that stuff. They made sure that
15 that part was strong. They had the resources. Like you
16 remember Dr. Burger made the -- offered testimony regarding
17 the IMS, they had the proper equipment and resources
18 necessary so everybody could meet at one place, and it's
19 called the Web where the TACs fed all their information in
20 there daily so PREL could draw the information off of that to
21 do all their statistical stuff to ensure that we were moving
22 in the right direction.
23 So to me, the 1.3 wasn't totally to PREL. Yeah,
24 PREL made money, Na Laukoa made money, but that was a
25 necessity to make sure everything was covered. We had to do
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1 that because it just had to be done because we knew sometime
2 along the line we were going to have to face somebody some
3 place, but it had to be done, but we did it as a team. Na
4 Laukoa couldn't have done it by itself. PREL could not have
5 done it by themselves, and this we know for a fact.
6 To be honest with you, sir, I don't think any other
7 agency could have done what Na Laukoa did. I really don't.
8 Because we worked differently and we hired differently and we
9 looked at individuals that would put up with what we needed
10 them to put up with in the different complexes. More
11 importantly, we looked for individuals with the proper
12 credentials to be able to put away their credentials, put
13 away their ego, and work like us, like me, like a
14 paraprofessional in the field.
15 We looked for those type of people that had the
16 heart to stick in there and work for the child. That is our
17 only focus behind this entire project, and that's where --
18 and that's where our TACs succeeded. They were able to put
19 their big papers -- and we had Ph.D.s doing this. Ph.D.s.
20 Ph.D.s and master's level people doing this hands-on work in
21 the field with the complexes. I mean, how many Ph.D.s can
22 get their hands dirty these days? They're charging 250 bucks
23 an hour now. These Ph.D.s we found -- we found these people
24 by having these interviews and asking them, and some of them
25 left other posts to come help us during this short duration.
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1 We always knew that we were working ourselves out of a job.
2 We always knew that. This wasn't a long-term thing. It was
3 temporary.
4 Q. Thank you very much.
5 A. You're welcome. Mahalo.
6 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank you.
7 Members, we've been going for over an hour, so we'd like to
8 give our court reporter a break. Take a five-minute recess.
9 Recess.
10 (Recess taken.)
11 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Members, we'd
12 like to reconvene our public hearing. Before we proceed with
13 questioning with regard to Ms. Stocksdale, we'd like to ask
14 two witnesses to please approach the witness table, Mr. John
15 Donkervoet and Ms. Mary Brogan. This is a housekeeping
16 matter. Mr. Donkervoet and Ms. Brogan were subpoenaed to
17 testify this afternoon, but obviously we are running out of
18 time. So we'd like to ask them whether they can reschedule
19 their appearance before the committee. The committee rules
20 require that witnesses be given ten days' notice of a hearing
21 date unless the witness agrees to waive that ten-day notice,
22 and Mr. Donkervoet and Ms. Brogan have stated that they agree
23 to waive that ten-day notice requirement. Mr. Donkervoet has
24 agreed to appear before this committee a week from today on
25 Saturday, October 27th, and Ms. Brogan has agreed to appear
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1 before this committee a week from Wednesday, which would be
2 Wednesday, October 31st, and the time for each of those
3 hearings is 9:00 a.m. So we wanted to just place on the
4 record their agreement to appear on those respective dates.
5 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Can you both
6 vocalize a response?
7 MR. DONKERVOET: Yes.
8 MS. BROGAN: Yes.
9 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: That's Mary Brogan
10 on the right, for the court reporter, and Mr. Donkervoet.
11 Thank you very much.
12 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank you.
13 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: And, members, as a
14 housekeeping matter, because we are in session, the statute
15 permits us to a three-day notice on hearings. We will be in
16 session on Monday, so we will then post amended hearing
17 notices for those days. Thank you very much.
18 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank you. We
19 will proceed with questioning by Vice-Chair Oshiro, followed
20 by Co-Chair Hanabusa.
21 VICE-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE OSHIRO: Thank you,
22 Co-Chair Saiki.
23 EXAMINATION
24 BY VICE-CHAIR OSHIRO:
25 Q. Aloha, Ms. Stocksdale.
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1 A. Aloha.
2 Q. You know, I was noticing that earlier when
3 Mr. Omura was testifying, he was talking about the CSSS,
4 which is the comprehensive student support system, and he was
5 describing the -- I guess the tenants behind that system and
6 what it's trying to do and I saw you nodding. So you're
7 fairly familiar with that system?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you briefly describe for us what your
10 understanding is of it?
11 A. My understanding is the CSSS, the comprehensive
12 student support services, is the ultimate. It's for every
13 child in the state of Hawaii, every child in the system, and
14 that's what we're trying to all reach at. CSSS is the answer
15 for each one of the children, no matter if their special
16 needs or regular ed children, that's the answer, because you
17 wrap a child and you wrap the child thoroughly, yes.
18 Q. Okay. Because -- how did you come to learn of what
19 this whole concept of CSSS is?
20 A. The trainings we've had, that was also included.
21 We had a whole day training with all these DOE folks, the
22 IEPs, the IDEA, the 504s, the CSSS, and that was the first --
23 the first orientation into the CSSS, then the TACs were all
24 given copies or recirculated copies and then we read it.
25 Kimo came to me one day and said, ke po'o, this is what we're
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1 supposed to do for the kids, and that's when we started
2 targeting towards that.
3 Q. And do you recall when that training and the
4 overall explanation and details of CSSS was explained to you
5 or shared with you?
6 A. The first time -- there was a calendar that I
7 brought just in case somebody was going to ask about that
8 kind of information. Can I have a moment, please?
9 Q. Sure. Well, just generally, the training, was
10 this before or after you had entered into the subcontract?
11 Do you happen to remember, Ms. Stocksdale?
12 A. I'm sorry?
13 Q. Was the training held before or after you had
14 actually entered into the subcontract with PREL? Do you
15 happen to remember that?
16 A. It happened after, I believe.
17 Q. So the -- it was after that you entered the
18 subcontract, that's when somebody explained the CSSS system
19 to you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Because earlier what you had stated was you didn't
22 really understand -- I think you had said you weren't sure
23 why Bob Golden was so opposed to your organization at the
24 July 7, 2001 meeting; is that correct?
25 A. Yeah, when I first met him -- when I first met him
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1 at the second meeting, he was one of the four people that was
2 asking us questions, and he just looked uncomfortable.
3 Q. Do you recall what kind of questions he was asking
4 you at that time?
5 A. No. Oh, yes, one question I do because he directed
6 it straight to me, and that's the only thing that stuck in my
7 brain because after I had answered it he gave this real look,
8 and you know when you get that kind look, you don't forget
9 it. So he gave me this look after I had answered, and it was
10 regarding a Dr. Adelman, and I didn't answer it to his
11 expectations, I guess, because he gave me this look, and to
12 be honest with you, Dr. Rentz and Dr. Kimo didn't know who
13 Dr. -- well, we were kind of aware, but the way he put the
14 question to me, I didn't answer it properly.
15 Dr. Adelman is one of the master consultants that's
16 coming to the state of Hawaii, him and Taylor and a whole
17 slew of other ones that's coming -- that came to Hawaii to
18 work with the people at the top, so the people at the top
19 would pick up on their skills and understand more, because we
20 started learning that plenty people didn't know plenty stuff
21 and we all just had to start working as a team. We all had
22 to work -- everybody worked hard at this, not just Na Laukoa
23 or PREL, everybody, the whole system had to work at this.
24 Q. Because, actually, I think that what Mr. Golden was
25 sort of upset by, according to his testimony, was that your
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1 organization had absolutely no familiarity with what CSSS was
2 at the time of the presentation. Right here I actually have
3 a copy of his transcript, so this is actually his testimony
4 that was given, and it's part of the public record. So this
5 is what he states regarding that July 7th meeting. He said,
6 I just heard nothing of substance. In my view, in my
7 opinion, I heard nothing that was resourceful that was being
8 discussed, no plan of action, certainly no time line with no
9 outcome. And I only asked two questions. I asked the
10 question if this Na Laukoa program was aware of, had
11 discussed, had read, had researched any of the models and the
12 process and the procedures that were currently being used in
13 the schools to address the mental health, behavior health,
14 and supports needed for the kids. In other words, were they
15 familiar with what was already going on, and I used the term
16 CSSS and they did not know that. He goes on to say that they
17 could not respond to my question, and I asked a follow-up
18 question if they could share with me or if they were aware
19 of -- could they discuss any research-based model that they
20 might be thinking of by way of their implementation in
21 providing technical assistance for the complex, and I said,
22 quote, are you aware of the work of the folks coming out of
23 UCLA that is already connected with what they're doing now,
24 and they had no idea what I was talking about. Does that
25 sound familiar to you?
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1 A. That's accurate, too, as well.
2 Q. Because I think, for Dr. Golden, his concern is
3 that this theoretical model, CSSS, is something that was
4 already in place in the school system and was trying to be
5 moved forward. That's exactly what I think Mr. Omura said,
6 in that they already have this system in place and were
7 trying to more fully develop it. At the same time, I also
8 understand that what you were trying to bring through Na
9 Laukoa was more of a cultural kind of awareness aspect to the
10 way that we should be providing services; is that a
11 correct --
12 A. That's partially true, Representative Oshiro. May
13 I elaborate on that for just a moment?
14 Q. Sure.
15 A. What you just said, yes, that's partially true.
16 The other part was CSSS, in his system, because he works --
17 he worked with it every day, he knew of it, we -- we were --
18 we were Department of Health mental health at that time, at
19 that time. The TAC project -- the TACs were never expected
20 to be experts in any field. The whole intent of the TACs was
21 to be able to work with other people so we could bring the
22 information in a nonthreatening way to help the complexes in
23 the trenches. I can understand why Golden would say
24 something like that, because it was new. We had never heard
25 of it. But once we learned it, wampa, we got it implemented,
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1 once we understood what the function was, and that was part
2 of the orientation and part of the TACs staying on top of it
3 and just reading and understanding what they needed to do.
4 Remember what I said about the TAC meetings? The
5 TAC meetings was not fluff. We didn't just sit there and
6 talk story. The TAC meeting was so synchronized and in
7 order, PREL stayed on top of us, Dr. Kimo stayed on top of
8 us, and we shared and we left the room with information to
9 take back to our complexes. CSSS was where -- was where we
10 needed to end up at because that was the place that the
11 children would be guaranteed the proper services, their fair
12 share, at the CSSS level.
13 Q. I mean, I understand that, and I see my time is up,
14 but I just wanted to sort of explain. I think that, anyway,
15 from Dr. Golden's assessment, helping the schools to reach
16 compliance is a very sort of -- it's a technical process,
17 which is why it's called technical assistance, I suppose, but
18 in any event, what he didn't see at the time of your
19 presentation was he didn't see you folks being aware of the
20 models that were already in place, and he didn't see you
21 folks having this idea of what the concept was.
22 A. That's understandable.
23 Q. While fairly I understand that you did need to get
24 trained on it, I guess from his perspective he assumed you
25 folks would already have this kind of awareness. So I guess
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1 that's the differences. Thank you very much.
2 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank you.
3 Co-Chair Hanabusa.
4 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: How about Senator
5 Sakamoto? Senator Sakamoto, do you have any questions?
6 SENATOR SAKAMOTO: No, thank you.
7 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you.
8 EXAMINATION
9 BY CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA:
10 Q. Aloha, Ms. Stocksdale.
11 A. Hi, Ms. Hanabusa.
12 Q. Let me go back to some points. Ms. Stocksdale, I
13 have your filings with the Department of Commerce and
14 Consumer Affairs, and it says that Kaniu 1 was, I guess,
15 organized -- because you are an LLC -- on September 17, 1997.
16 Does that sound correct to you? You didn't file anything
17 before that? This is the official document.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. And I have a copy of a press release that basically
20 said that the Big Island Demonstration Project, which I
21 believe is what you've been referring to from the Kapiolani
22 Health Hawaii, was basically going to end on August 1 of 1998
23 with about a 90-day transition period. Does that sound
24 correct to you?
25 A. Yes, I think.
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1 Q. I'm just trying to get a time frame on all of these
2 dates, because I think you were saying '96, '97. You weren't
3 quite sure. So do you have any reason to disagree with these
4 specific dates?
5 A. You're saying that the demonstration projected
6 ended in '98?
7 Q. '98.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. So you were -- I think your testimony was Kaniu 1
10 was formed to start to work on this demonstration project
11 with Kapiolani.
12 A. No. Kaniu 1 came into being after Kapiolani, I
13 believe, when Kapiolani was moving over to DOH.
14 Q. So actually Kaniu 1 became an LLC one year prior to
15 that, about. That's about the time frame.
16 A. I can't remember exactly, Ms. Hanabusa. I'm sorry.
17 Q. That's fine. The other thing I wanted to ask you
18 about is your contract with PREL. First of all, prior to
19 entering into that contract, did you know of this
20 organization called PREL?
21 A. PREL? No, I didn't.
22 Q. So you had no idea as to whether PREL had any
23 dealings in special ed or anything like that?
24 A. No, I didn't.
25 Q. Would you be surprised to know that this was
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1 probably -- the contract that PREL and Na Laukoa shared was
2 probably the largest contract PREL received in the state of
3 Hawaii as well?
4 A. Yes. Well, they have several -- they've got this
5 really neat thing going where they've got these federal
6 grants.
7 Q. That's all they do is federal grants. This was a
8 very unusual contract for them too. As Representative Ito
9 pointed out, your contract, which was originally estimated at
10 $612,000 in the Department of Education-PREL contract, ended
11 up being $688,245, and you agree with that figure, correct?
12 A. That's what's on our contract, yes.
13 Q. Between yourself and PREL?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. And you were correct when you said that the TACs
16 themselves were paid by PREL. In fact, I believe under the
17 scope of the services, it's -- it's this management team that
18 recruits and selects the TACs, and it's basically PREL that
19 pays them. Does that sound correct to you? That's part of
20 your contract.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. One of the things in your contract that I
23 wanted to have explained is you have a description of
24 advisors in your contract. Did you fall in the advisor
25 category?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So advisors were to be paid at $800 a day in phase
3 1 and in phase 2 as well. It's a standard rate of $800 a
4 day. Does that sound correct?
5 A. I need to correct something and add more clarity.
6 I played the role as an advisor with the overall targeted
7 assistance project, but those advisors I think at that level
8 there was the hiring of master consultants. If ever we
9 needed to have master consultants, that was the rate we were
10 estimating to pay them. We were estimating to pay them 800 a
11 day.
12 Q. And you said that you were, I guess, billed out at
13 half time for the period of time that you were doing this
14 PREL contract?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you said that you've earned, I think it was,
17 $36,000 to date?
18 A. From PREL.
19 Q. From PREL; is that correct?
20 A. From the PREL contract, yes.
21 Q. And as an LLC, though, that $40,000 that is already
22 earned and retained will technically go to you because you
23 are the only member of the LLC?
24 A. That will go to the entity itself. I get a
25 paycheck out of Na Laukoa and -- it goes to Na Laukoa, then
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1 Na Laukoa pays me, but what my accountant guys did for me so
2 I could better understand -- because I don't handle numbers.
3 Numbers and I have never gotten along well. They went and
4 they prepared for me to show me exactly what I made from
5 PREL, and the number they came up was $36,320.
6 Q. To date?
7 A. Through -- from May of last year through October.
8 Q. Through October?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So you have billed -- let me back up now. There
11 was an issue when the PREL people testified as to whether
12 your entity, Kaniu 1, would be given an extension on the
13 contract. Were you given that extension of the contract to
14 the end of October?
15 A. October, yes, we just recently received it.
16 Q. They also testified that as of that date, and I
17 don't have the exact figure in my mind, but you had about
18 almost $200,000 yet to be billed on the 688,000. Does that
19 sound right to you? And they had only received bills from
20 you I think through June at that point.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So you have now caught up and billed it through
23 October?
24 A. Yes. No, no, excuse me. Through August. We've
25 caught up and billed through August and the September billing
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1 is now going in.
2 Q. So do you anticipate to bill out the total
3 $688,000?
4 A. No way. No. The reason why I say that,
5 Ms. Hanabusa, is that as we accomplished, there was less to
6 bill for. So you'll see -- you'll notice in our invoices
7 that we started off with large numbers and now we're tapering
8 down. I think it's only like 28,000 now. We're tapering and
9 we're dropping even lower.
10 Q. What we didn't know, I guess until you just told
11 us, is the fact that Dr. Alameda is no longer with you,
12 because we do note that there was a change in the program
13 liaison if -- I guess in August or June of 2001 from
14 Dr. Alameda to yourself. So he had left you, then?
15 A. Dr. Alameda, you mean as lead coordinator,
16 Ms. Hanabusa?
17 Q. No. The provision is programs liaison.
18 Dr. Alameda was specifically designated in 2.1 of your
19 subcontract to be the programs liaison to PREL.
20 A. Right.
21 Q. And he was removed and your name put in. So he --
22 A. Is my name on that paper?
23 Q. Yes, it is.
24 A. Oh. Carol Plummer was put in place of
25 Dr. Alameda.
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1 Q. It's interesting, because it's signed by you and
2 there is no other amendment that we have been provided. So
3 as far as they are concerned -- this is contract modification
4 number 1. All right. My time is up.
5 A. Ms. Hanabusa, can you flip it around so I can view
6 what you're viewing, please?
7 Q. It's a PREL document called contract modification
8 number 1.
9 A. Right, okay. Well, it's my signature because I
10 sign everything that comes out of Na Laukoa. Carol Plummer
11 is an independent contractor that's contracted to Na Laukoa
12 to replace Kimo. So if I signed it, I may not have read it
13 right, but it meant the same thing, that the contract was
14 being extended through October?
15 Q. No. This is from August 15th to August 31st. They
16 had not extended your contract at the time --
17 A. That would be the first extension, because the
18 second extension just came in recently.
19 Q. They didn't even have an unsigned copy of that.
20 Thank you.
21 A. You're welcome.
22 SENATOR SAKAMOTO: Chair Saiki, maybe can I
23 yield my time to Chair Hanabusa?
24 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Sure.
25 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: That's all right.
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1 I'll let Saiki go and then I'll take it back.
2 EXAMINATION
3 BY CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
4 Q. Ms. Stocksdale, I just have a few questions.
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. First, with respect to your meeting with
7 Dr. Groves, when he voiced his concerns over Na Laukoa.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What was said that caused him to change his mind or
10 to satisfy his concerns and who said those things?
11 A. He didn't change his mind when we were all in the
12 room at that time, Representative Saiki. It happened after
13 we left, and I guess they had a pow wow about it. They had
14 discussions amongst themselves, which we were not privy to.
15 Q. Who had that discussion?
16 A. The people who was in the room.
17 Q. Who was that?
18 A. You're asking me who? What we said that may have
19 changed Dr. Groves' intentions?
20 Q. Or anyone who was at that meeting.
21 A. I don't know. I don't know if there was any
22 particular person that had said anything to make him change.
23 I don't know.
24 Q. Well, after you left the room, who remained in the
25 room?
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1 A. All the people that was there, Dr. Groves,
2 Dr. LeMahieu, Ms. Yoshioka I believe was there, maybe even
3 Dr. Houck, and there were a couple of other DOE people at the
4 table. Dr. Kimo, Dr. Ellen, and I left.
5 Q. Does anybody at Na Laukoa -- was anybody at Na
6 Laukoa ever slated to receive compensation in the amount of
7 $150,000 and $170,000, that range?
8 A. For what?
9 Q. For their services.
10 A. No, sir. Are you referring to the news article in
11 the newspaper?
12 Q. No. Well, there's actually what is called a Felix
13 response plan that states that the coordinator receive a
14 salary between 150,000 and $170,000.
15 A. Is that like off of a court report or something?
16 Q. Well, it's within the Felix response plan, which
17 was, I believe, filed with the court.
18 A. Okay. I'm not familiar with that, sir. Wow.
19 Q. It's called the Felix response plan.
20 A. That was the document that came out to try to
21 address the Felix consent decree?
22 Q. Well, it's one of the documents.
23 A. It's one of the documents, all right. So that's
24 where the $170,000 came from. We at Na Laukoa was trying to
25 figure out where that number came from because it was printed
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1 up in the newspaper. It made havoc in my own company. I
2 mean, being the type of company we are with the fiscal
3 difficulties that we experience sometimes, it kind of threw
4 us off, the 170.
5 Q. I just had a couple of questions on targeted
6 technical assistance.
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Which complexes on the Big Island were to receive
9 that assistance?
10 A. The complexes that was part of the original
11 contract -- original contract was Ka'u, Kona, and Kohala.
12 When I say Ka'u, I mean Na'alehu, Pahala, and Ka'u school.
13 Q. Have any of those reached compliance?
14 A. Not yet. Konawaena is up next week.
15 Q. Just -- I mean, just very generally but very
16 quickly, because my time is running out, for the Kona
17 complex, what specifically did your organization do for the
18 Kona complex?
19 A. We provided the coordinations to Mr. Ed Murai, who
20 is the TAC coordinator there in that complex. Prior to
21 Mr. Ed Murai it was -- it was --
22 Q. Well, okay, aside from coordination, what else did
23 your organization do?
24 A. Mr. Saiki, our contract with PREL -- our contract
25 with PREL is to provide technical assistance, to provide
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1 technical coordinated assistance.
2 Q. So when you say coordination, what do you mean by
3 coordination? What did you coordinate?
4 A. We helped Mr. Murai, give him direction, give him
5 resources, give him information.
6 Q. What kind of direction?
7 A. Whatever his needs were. Those -- those day-to-day
8 questions you could get a more solid and better answer than
9 myself by the lead coordinator, who is Carol Plummer.
10 Q. Well, do you have any examples of what kind of
11 direction was provided?
12 A. Well --
13 Q. Within the Kona complex.
14 A. Times that Mr. Murai would come to the meetings,
15 he'd share his concerns and his issues and we'd give him
16 information or give him some suggestions as to what can be
17 done or what should be done, et cetera.
18 Q. Can you give one example of what kind of direction
19 was given?
20 A. I couldn't give that to you right now, Mr. Saiki,
21 but who could is Carol Plummer, our lead coordinator.
22 Q. Can you tell us what kind of resources you gave to
23 Mr. Murai?
24 A. What kind of resources? I couldn't tell you
25 specifically. That would be a question for Carol Plummer.
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1 Unfortunately, she was here earlier but she had to catch a
2 plane to go to Vancouver.
3 Q. Can you just think of one resource?
4 A. Let's see. Depending on his needs, it could
5 possibly be information.
6 Q. What kind of information?
7 A. Maybe suggested services for suspicion to -- excuse
8 me, alternatives to suspension or something regarding student
9 behavior regarding bully -- bullies in the school, something
10 like that.
11 Q. Thank you. My time is up. Thank you very much.
12 A. You're welcome.
13 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Members, we'll
14 take follow-up questions. First from Mr. Kawashima.
15 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: I have none.
16 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Members, any
17 follow-up questions? Co-Chair Hanabusa.
18 EXAMINATION
19 BY CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA:
20 Q. Ms. Stocksdale, one of the unusual things about the
21 PREL contract and your contract that caught our eyes is that
22 it never stood the review of the attorney general, and was
23 there any concern expressed to you or were you ever asked
24 when you were at -- you know, slated to be the only provider
25 in the beginning about whether or not you could provide tax
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1 clearances, because we noted that for some reason that
2 provision of the contract with the DOE was not complied with.
3 Even if you are a subcontractor, you must provide a tax
4 clearance. Was there any problems with that? Could you have
5 provided a tax clearance in -- I'll give you the exact
6 date -- in August -- in September of the year 2000?
7 A. I believe we could have, but it was never asked of
8 us.
9 Q. I'm sorry, what did you say?
10 A. I said it was never asked of us, but I would
11 believe that we could have. I think we could have.
12 Q. Do you have any objections if we get that
13 information from the tax department? We can get it as long
14 as you give us your concurrence, and we can put that issue to
15 rest.
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. No problem? Okay, thank you. The other issue is,
18 you know, when I hear your testimony I hear two things going
19 in and out. One is the role of therapeutic aides and the
20 other is the role of the technical assistance coordinator. I
21 guess overlaid on that is the role of Na Laukoa and the role
22 of PREL. Now, according to your contract, there must be a
23 plan developed for each -- phase one of your contract is to
24 develop a plan for each complex, and the plan shall identify
25 barriers and service gaps and provide a strategy to remove
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1 barriers and fill service gaps and this was supposed to be
2 completed by September 30th of the year 2000. Do you recall
3 whether you did that for all 14 complexes?
4 A. Remember when I told you that we had 15 complexes
5 and each complex had a TAC?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. The TAC's job was to go into the complexes and seek
8 and find -- find -- go look at what's there, come back and
9 report it.
10 Q. So --
11 A. And the TACs -- the TACs would come back and report
12 it and then we'd formulate a strategic TAC plan to each of
13 the complexes.
14 Q. So my question is, did you complete that by
15 September 30th, 2000, if you know?
16 A. In some complexes -- some complexes did not buy
17 into the idea as quickly as others, and I would say maybe not
18 all of them came in by September, but pretty close.
19 Q. So if we were to get -- review PREL's documents,
20 then we should find most of the schools in compliance by
21 September 30th, 2000 in terms of the plan for each complex;
22 that's your testimony, correct?
23 A. Ms. Hanabusa, I can answer it this way. If you
24 check PREL's documentation, you'll find whatever was
25 submitted at that time, whichever complex was able to submit
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1 it at that time line, and the reason why I answer like this
2 is because I have forgotten already on that because it's been
3 some time and 15 complexes is quite a lot, but I would trust
4 in the quality of each of these TACs to ensure that they
5 would have met that time line if the complexes bought into
6 this idea.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. Because some complexes were more resistant than
9 others due to the uniqueness of this approach.
10 Q. So, Ms. Stocksdale, the people actually in the
11 schools were the TACs, correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So there was one per complex?
14 A. Yes, one per 15 complexes that was identified, yes.
15 Q. So one to each of it. The second part is basically
16 begin implementation and monitoring of the plan for each
17 complex and the TAC will guide implementation of the plan for
18 each complex and identify the barriers and so forth. Tell
19 me, what did Na Laukoa do -- not the TAC, what did Na Laukoa
20 do in terms of implementing phase two?
21 A. Okay. As administrator I oversaw the project. As
22 the lead coordinator, they would -- they would be the one
23 that could answer you more specifically on details,
24 step-by-step details, but as what I understood, information
25 was given to us as Na Laukoa. We deciphered it, and then
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1 there's times when Kimo -- if there was a complex that was
2 really resistant, Dr. Kimo would fly there, drive there, make
3 a personal appearance and seem to be able to pacify or to be
4 able to answer things to make it better where the complex
5 felt more comfortable to move forward.
6 Q. My final question, because my time is up too, is
7 that, you know, you have identified the complexes in your
8 contract. Out of that list, how many as of your date here,
9 June 30th, 2001, according to this -- September 1, 2001, how
10 many have completed the process that you were contracted to
11 do?
12 A. That would be the service testing information?
13 Let's see. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. One,
14 two, three, four, five, six. As of yesterday --
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. -- Maui has just come into compliance.
17 Q. Maui, when you say Maui --
18 A. Maui complex.
19 Q. Maui complex?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay?
22 A. It does not include Baldwin. Seven, as of
23 yesterday. Konawaena, which is also part of our contract,
24 goes up for testing next week and Roosevelt, which we've --
25 as part of the extension of our contract we've put a TAC into
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1 Roosevelt as well. They come up for service testing as well
2 next week too.
3 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you very
4 much.
5 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank you.
6 Vice-Chair Oshiro.
7 EXAMINATION
8 BY VICE-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE OSHIRO:
9 Q. I just have one more follow-up question. I recall
10 earlier that when someone was asking you a question you said
11 something to the effect that you had heard Ms. Farmer talking
12 about the targeted technical assistance program and how it
13 was going to be dying a natural death. At that time I think
14 your comments were that you were surprised or you were
15 saddened by such a comment. Can you clarify that for me
16 again? Because from your testimony, the sense I'm getting is
17 you think that Na Laukoa and targeted technical assistance is
18 successful.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you please clarify that for me?
21 A. To hear -- to hear those kinds of words when
22 there's a group of people that's working really hard, it's
23 not a very supportive thing to hear. We know how hard the
24 TACs are working, and we know what their accomplishes are. I
25 believe by viewing that videotape of Ms. Farmer's -- of Debra
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1 Farmer's testimony, the comment may have been made early at
2 the get-go of this project to where it left a not so nice
3 impression at that time, and knowing where we are today, I
4 don't think that she would use those same words. Everybody
5 has a different way of interpreting this project, and that
6 would be my answer of interpreting as to how it is today.
7 Q. Okay. Because actually I think that's a little
8 inconsistent with our understanding of the assessment of the
9 project.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In looking at, again, this deposition transcript
12 from Mr. Golden, he talks about that there was some meeting
13 about the end of July, and he says although he wasn't at this
14 meeting, he was informed because he's the director of student
15 support services -- he was informed that, quote, a meeting
16 was held within the last month and there was review, formal
17 or informal, of where we are at this point departmentally
18 with targeted technical assistance and what recommendations
19 should be at this point, and what I heard of what was
20 discussed at that meeting it seemed to further imbed the idea
21 that this has been a failure. Again, the question popped up
22 is this worthy, is it deemed worthy of being continued? And
23 what I was informed as the director for the branch was that
24 the discussions said no, it is not. So apparently there was
25 this meeting about the end of July with -- from here it says
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1 Dr. Houck, Dr. Campbell, Ms. Hamamoto, and Ms. Farmer, and
2 their assessment was that it's a failure.
3 A. What date was that again, Mr. Oshiro?
4 Q. In looking back at this, the deposition was taken
5 on August 30th, 2001 and he references a meeting about a
6 month ago, so I would guess the meeting was held at about the
7 end of July of this year.
8 A. And Ms. Hamamoto was there at the meeting?
9 Q. According to what the testimony states.
10 A. And the words was that the project was a failure?
11 Q. It's a failure and therefore they are not going to
12 continue it. Just so you know. Thank you.
13 A. Thank you.
14 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank you very
15 much. Members, any other follow-up questions?
16 EXAMINATION
17 BY CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
18 Q. If not, I just have a couple of questions, because
19 there were a couple of issues that we're following up on.
20 One had to do with the IQSPs, and I was wondering what the
21 status is of that, because that's one of the items within
22 targeted technical assistance?
23 A. The interquality agency service plan, IQSP. IQSPs
24 was brought by -- it was created -- it's a write-up that
25 says -- that tells -- that the complexes tell us what their
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1 problems are, and the targeted technical assistance
2 coordinators help to achieve what's listed in the IQSP.
3 Q. Thanks. The other area was on discipline, and I'm
4 glad that you mentioned the alternatives to suspension and
5 student behavior issues. To what extent are complexes like
6 Konawaena dealing with Felix children with disciplinary
7 problems? What is the scope of the way that these students
8 are being treated?
9 A. I couldn't answer that question, Representative
10 Saiki. It would have to be a question for Carol Plummer, the
11 lead coordinator, although one of the TACs did create a
12 write-up on doing alternative to suspension that we are now
13 currently passing out to all the other TACs to see if their
14 complexes can use it as well.
15 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank you.
16 Any other follow-up questions? Senator Hanabusa.
17 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Yes, I'm going to
18 use Senator Sakamoto's time.
19 EXAMINATION
20 BY CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA:
21 Q. Something that you said and something that
22 Dr. Burger said I'm curious about. Dr. Burger said that yes,
23 the TACs may have assisted, but the compliance that these
24 schools are now experiencing is, for the most part, due to
25 the hard work in the schools. Would you agree with that?
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1 A. Yes, definitely.
2 Q. The other thing I have is something that I believe
3 it was either Mr. Golden or Ms. Farmer who said they were
4 told by Dr. Houck to just let Dr. LeMahieu have his Na Laukoa
5 and just keep doing what they were doing to get the schools
6 into compliance. Have you ever heard that comment before?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You have not?
9 A. Outside of maybe -- I'm not sure if I heard it on
10 the video as well, but I think I only heard it on the video.
11 Q. That's the only time you heard it? No one has ever
12 told you that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. But I appreciate the fact that like Mr. Burger that
15 you also recognize that the schools have worked very hard to
16 get into compliance.
17 A. Ms. Hanabusa, you have no idea how hard these
18 schools are working now. They are all -- it takes everybody.
19 It takes everybody to have an attitude change to implement
20 this whole school change, this whole systems change. They
21 have really been working hard.
22 Q. Yes, I appreciate that, Ms. Stocksdale. The other
23 issue that a lot of the schools have said is that they
24 finally understand from the monitor what the criteria is that
25 they are being judged by. As Mr. Omura said, when someone is
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1 telling them to guess what it takes to come into compliance,
2 it is not an easy task, but with that, thank you very much.
3 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Are there any
4 other matters before the committee? Any further questions?
5 No? Senator Slom?
6 EXAMINATION
7 BY SENATOR SLOM:
8 Q. Thank you. Just to put this on the record finally.
9 Again, you had described the relationship with
10 Dr. LeMahieu as one of business associate, as a business
11 associate relationship. Was that restricted solely to this
12 contract?
13 A. I don't understand your question.
14 Q. Was Dr. LeMahieu involved in any other way in any
15 of your other businesses or activities?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Not as an investor?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Director?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did he ever lend any of the businesses money?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Nothing? And I guess just one final comment. What
24 were your thoughts -- were you surprised with his sudden
25 resignation the other night?
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1 A. I, like you, was surprised.
2 Q. How did you first hear about that?
3 A. My son called me at 10:30 at night after seeing the
4 news.
5 Q. Thank you, Ms. Stocksdale.
6 SENATOR SLOM: Thank you, Co-Chair.
7 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Okay, members,
8 since there are no other follow-up questions, thank you very
9 much, Ms. Stocksdale, for appearing today.
10 THE WITNESS: Mahalo. Aloha.
11 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: There's no
12 further business, so we will adjourn.
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1 State of Hawaii )
2 ) ss:
3 CITY & COUNTY OF HONOLULU )
4
5 I, JESSICA R. PERRY, do hereby certify:
6 That on October 20, 2001, at 8:58 a.m. the
7 foregoing proceedings were taken down by me in machine
8 shorthand and was thereafter reduced to typewritten form by
9 computer-aided transcription; that the foregoing represents,
10 to the best of my ability, a full, true and correct
11 transcript of the proceedings had in the foregoing matter.
12 I further certify that I am not attorney for
13 any of the parties hereto, nor in any way concerned with the
14 cause.
15
16 DATED this 6th day of November 2001, in
17 Honolulu, Hawaii.
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23 Jessica R. Perry, CSR 404
Notary Public, State of Hawaii
24 My commission expires: 5/11/03
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RALPH ROSENBERG COURT REPORTERS
OFC: (808) 524-2090 FAX: (808) 524-2596