1 SENATE/HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
2 THE 21ST LEGISLATURE
3 INTERIM OF 2001
4
5
6
7
8
9 JOINT SENATE-HOUSE INVESTIGATIVE COMMITTEE HEARING
10 OCTOBER 17, 2001
11
12
13
14 Taken at the State Capitol, 415 South Beretania,
15 Conference Room 325, Honolulu, Hawaii, commencing at
16 9:12 a.m. on Wednesday, October 17, 2001.
17
18
19
20 BEFORE: SHIRLEY L. KEYS, RPR, CM, CSR 383
21 Notary Public, State of Hawaii
22
23
24
25
Page 1
1 APPEARANCES:
2
3 State-House Investigative Committee:
4 Co-Chair Senator Colleen Hanabusa
5 Co-Chair Representative Scott Saiki
6 Vice-Chair Senator Russell Kokubun
7 Vice-Chair Representative Blake Oshiro
8 Senator Jan Yagi Buen
9 Representative Ken Ito
10 Representative Bertha Kawakami
11 Representative Bertha Leong
12 Representative Barbara Marumoto
13 Representative David Matsuura
14 Senator Norman Sakamoto
15 Senator Sam Slom
16
17 Also Present:
18
19 Special Counsel James Kawashima
20 Mr. Dennis McLaughlin
21 Ms. Tina McLaughlin
22 Ms. Sharon Nobriga
23 Ms. Vicky Followell
24 Ms. Kate Pahinui
25
Page 2
1 I N D E X
2
3 WITNESS: DENNIS MCLAUGHLIN and TINA MCLAUGHLIN
4
5 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
6 Special Counsel Kawashima 7
7 Vice-Chair Representative Oshiro 64
8 Vice-Chair Senator Kokubun 69
9 Representative Kawakami 73
10 Senator Slom 76
11 Representative Leong 81
12 Senator Matsuura 85
13 Representative Marumoto 88
14 Senator Sakamoto 90
15 Co-Chair Senator Hanabusa 94
16 Co-Chair Representative Saiki 99
17 Special Counsel Kawashima 100
18 Senator Slom 102
19 Representative Ito 103
20 Co-Chair Hanabusa 104
21
22 WITNESS: SHARON NOBRIGA and VICKY FOLLOWELL
23
24 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
25 Special Counsel Kawashima 107
Page 3
1 Vice-Chair Senator Kokubun 147
2 Representative Ito 151
3 Senator Buen 155
4 Representative Kawakami 159
5 Senator Slom 163
6 Representative Leong 167
7 Senator Sakamoto 170
8 Representative Marumoto 174
9 Co-Chair Hanabusa 174
10 Senator Sakamoto 183
11 Senator Buen 185
12 Representative Leong 186
13 Co-Chair Representative Saiki 187
14 Senator Sakamoto 188
15
16 WITNESS: KATE PAHINUI
17
18 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
19 Special Counsel Kawashima 190
20 Vice-Chair Representative Oshiro 210
21 Senator Slom 211
22 Representative Kawakami 213
23 Co-Chair Representative Saiki 214
24 Co-Chair Senator Hanabusa 217
25 Special Counsel Kawashima 222
Page 4
1 Co-Chair Representative Saiki 226
2 Co-Chair Senator Hanabusa 228
3 Vice-Chair Senator Kokubun 230
4
5 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Good
6 morning. We'd like to convene our Joint Investigative
7 Committee to investigate the State's efforts to comply
8 with the Felix Consent Decree. We'll begin with the roll
9 call.
10 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Co-Chair
11 Saiki?
12 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
13 Present.
14 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Senator
15 Kokubun is excused. Vice-Chair Oshiro?
16 VICE-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE OSHIRO:
17 Here.
18 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Senator
19 Buen?
20 SENATOR BUEN: Here.
21 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA:
22 Representative Ito is excused. Representative Kawakami?
23 REPRESENTATIVE KAWAKAMI: Here.
24 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA:
25 Representative Leong?
Page 5
1 REPRESENTATIVE LEONG: Present.
2 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA:
3 Representative Marumoto?
4 REPRESENTATIVE MARUMOTO: Here.
5 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Senator
6 Matsuura is excused. Senator Sakamoto is excused.
7 Senator Slom?
8 SENATOR SLOM: Here.
9 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Co-Chair
10 Hanabusa is here. We have a quorum.
11 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
12 you, members. The first witness scheduled this morning
13 was Dr. Judith Schrag, but Dr. Schrag will not be here
14 this morning. We will begin with Dennis McLaughlin and
15 Tina McLaughlin. Would you administer the oath at this
16 time?
17 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: We'll have
18 Mr. McLaughlin first. Mr. Dennis McLaughlin, do you
19 solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about
20 to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing
21 but the truth?
22 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: I do.
23 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you.
24 Mrs. Tina McLaughlin, do you solemnly swear or affirm
25 that the testimony you're about to give will be the
Page 6
1 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
2 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I do.
3 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you
4 very much. Members, we'll be using the usual protocol
5 with Mr. Kawashima beginning first, and again, we are
6 instituting the five minute rule for witnesses. Thank
7 you very much. Mr. Kawashima?
8 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Thank you,
9 Madam Chair. We'll be starting with Mr. McLaughlin.
10 BY SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA:
11 Q. State your full name and business address.
12 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Dennis George
13 McLaughlin, Ph.D., CARE Hawaii, senior member of the firm
14 at 677 Ala Moana Boulevard, number 1003, Honolulu, 96813.
15 Q. Thank you. Ma'am?
16 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Tina Lorraine
17 McLaughlin, Psy. D., 677 Ala Moana Boulevard, Suite 1003,
18 Honolulu, Hawaii, 96813.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, first of all, this is a new
20 procedure where starting today, where we have more than
21 one witness on the stand, or I should say testifying at
22 once, so if you can, just when you answer, let me ask a
23 question that either one of you might answer or both of
24 you might answer. Will you just make sure that only one
25 person will speak at one time, okay, so that you don't
Page 7
1 speak together, because the stenographer may have
2 difficulty picking that up, all right?
3 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: All right.
4 Q. All right. You do of course know that you have
5 a right to have an attorney with you, you obviously have
6 waived that right at least for now.
7 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
8 Q. All right. And Mrs. McLaughlin, you have
9 voluntarily appeared -- I should say you've agreed to
10 appear to testify before this committee because there is
11 a ten day notice requirement, and in your case we did not
12 satisfy that, but nonetheless, you've agreed to
13 voluntarily appear and testify of your own free will. Is
14 that correct?
15 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
16 Q. All right.
17 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA:
18 Mr. Kawashima, before you begin, members, is there any
19 objection to the fact that we are having Mrs. Tina
20 McLaughlin testify at this time? Do I hear any
21 objections? If not, we're going to proceed in that
22 order. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Kawashima.
23 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Thank you,
24 Madam Chair.
25 Q. And my understanding is that Mrs. McLaughlin,
Page 8
1 you do the actual operation of CARE, the running of CARE
2 as opposed to your husband, and if we need to ask
3 questions about how the organization is run, is operated,
4 you would be very able to answer those questions, is that
5 correct?
6 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I am involved in the
7 day to day operations, yes.
8 Q. All right. And is Mr. McLaughlin involved in
9 the day to day operations of CARE?
10 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: He's the clinical
11 director and so he's more focused on that --
12 Q. All right.
13 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: -- part of the
14 business.
15 Q. But am I also to underst -- that between the
16 two of you, in terms of the day to day operations, in
17 terms of the clinical matters, that you would have
18 knowledge, if anyone did, about how CARE operated?
19 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
20 Q. All right. Now, perhaps you can start by sort
21 of -- Mrs. McLaughlin, give me your educational
22 background, please.
23 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I have a doctorate in
24 clinical psychology, I received it from Forest Institute
25 of Professional Psychology in 1990.
Page 9
1 Q. 1990?
2 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
3 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't catch the name of that
4 institution.
5 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Forest Institute of
6 Professional Psychology.
7 Q. Where is that?
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Its headquarters are
9 in Missouri. It was -- had a campus here at that time
10 then, is still here but has been bought by several
11 different companies since then.
12 Q. I see. How about your undergraduate degrees?
13 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Bachelors of science
14 was from Pacific Union College in 1973. Masters in
15 clinical psychology was from John F. Kennedy University
16 in 1981.
17 Q. This Forest Institute of Professional
18 Psychology, is it a correspondence type or Internet type
19 school?
20 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
21 Q. They actually have a campus?
22 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: They had a campus and
23 is accredited.
24 Q. Accredited here in the State of Hawaii?
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. As well as
Page 10
1 nationally.
2 Q. All right. How about you, sir, Mr. McLaughlin,
3 your educational background?
4 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: I went to UCLA,
5 graduated from high school in Hawaii, went to UCLA and
6 graduated in psychology and economics there and then went
7 to the University of Hawaii, and I have a Masters in
8 experimental psychology and a Ph.D. in educational
9 psychology and then I did some post doctorate work.
10 Q. All right. The Ph.D. in educational psychology
11 is from UH?
12 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: That's right.
13 Q. All right. And how about your work
14 backgrounds? I might start with Mrs. McLaughlin.
15 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Beginning 1973, I
16 worked in a hospital setting on both the psychiatric unit
17 and chemical dependency treatment program as a counselor
18 and then a program director. I did that for a number of
19 years, came to Hawaii in 1982 where I began Castle
20 Medical Center's alcoholism and addictions program, which
21 was initially inpatient. We then expanded that to be
22 outpatient on all islands. I then was director of the
23 Bobby Benson Center for the Treatment of Adolescent
24 Chemical Dependency. I worked for a period of time for
25 Diamond Head Family Guidance Center. I believe that was
Page 11
1 from 1990 to '92, and I performed evaluations, provided
2 therapy, particularly at Kaimuki High School, and was
3 head of the adolescent day treatment program. And then I
4 went into private practice in 1991, which became
5 full-time private practice for me.
6 Q. In 1992?
7 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah, right around
8 there.
9 Q. And you continued in full-time private practice
10 thereafter?
11 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. And then in 1997
12 we formed Hoa Hana Institute and had a contract with
13 CAMHD to provide services and subsequent to that in 1999
14 we formed CARE Hawaii and had a contract to perform
15 services for Felix class students.
16 Q. Sir, how about you, Mr. McLaughlin?
17 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: I worked for the State
18 of Hawaii in the Department of Health as the statistician
19 for probably about 25 years, was the head of research and
20 evaluation in the mental health division, and then I
21 worked as a clinical psychologist at the Halawa prison
22 and eventually that position transferred from the
23 Department of Health to the Department of Public Safety,
24 which I spent about two and a half years working at
25 Halawa as a psychologist.
Page 12
1 Q. What years were those, Halawa?
2 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Probably about 1992 to
3 '95, I think.
4 Q. All right. And the time you spent then prior
5 to that was with the Department of Health?
6 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
7 Q. As the statistician, you say?
8 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Right. Yes, but I got
9 the position because I also had a Ph.D. in educational
10 psychology.
11 Q. Are you retired from the State?
12 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: That's correct.
13 Q. State system?
14 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
15 Q. And what did you do from 1995 to 1997 then?
16 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Private practice. I
17 spent some time working with the Hawaii Youth
18 Correctional Facility, about a half time position on
19 that, plus I had a private practice going.
20 Q. All right.
21 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Then I worked for
22 Diamond Head, the children's section for a year, and then
23 we formed -- as a private practitioner, then we formed an
24 earlier agency called Hoa Hana that went on for two
25 years, and then we had our present agency here.
Page 13
1 Q. All right. I'll get back, I'll get back to Hoa
2 Hana later. Let me ask you some questions about CARE. I
3 understand it is a professional for profit corporation?
4 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. It was designed
5 that way.
6 Q. You hesitated.
7 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. We haven't made
8 much of a profit.
9 Q. When was CARE formed?
10 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: January of '99.
11 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: January of '99.
12 Q. And who are the owners of CARE?
13 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Myself and Dr. David
14 Roscoe.
15 Q. How do you spell that person's last name?
16 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: R-O-S-C-O-E.
17 Q. And what other position does Dr. Roscoe hold
18 with CARE other than being one of the owners?
19 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: He's an independent
20 contractor.
21 Q. He does -- he provides what type of services
22 for you?
23 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Therapy and
24 evaluation.
25 Q. Okay. Now, from a corporate standpoint I
Page 14
1 understand Mr. McLaughlin is the president and you are
2 the secretary-treasurer of CARE?
3 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: She's the CEO.
4 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right. But from a
5 corporate standpoint I'm secretary-treasurer.
6 Q. But from an operational standpoint,
7 Mrs. McLaughlin, you are the CEO, is that correct?
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
9 Q. And Dr. Roscoe only serves in an independent
10 contractor capacity then?
11 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
12 Q. Although he is an owner, also?
13 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
14 Q. And are you 50/50 owners?
15 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I'm two-thirds. He's
16 one-third.
17 Q. All right. Do you -- well, understanding that
18 you are the CEO, Mrs. McLaughlin, do you, Mr. McLaughlin,
19 provide services for CARE?
20 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
21 Q. What type?
22 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, largely
23 administrative, but I do some clinical work. And the
24 administrative work includes a very large amount of
25 supervision of our other practitioners.
Page 15
1 Q. Now, how many employees does CARE have right
2 now?
3 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We have that list
4 here. We have -- currently active, we have 97
5 independent contractors, and approximately -- I should
6 have counted that. I think it's about another hundred
7 employees.
8 Q. Hundred?
9 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
10 Q. These hundred employees are full-time
11 employees?
12 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No. There's a
13 mixture. We have some that are on an hourly basis, and
14 we have some that are part-time and some that are
15 full-time.
16 Q. I see. How many full-time?
17 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Probably about 30.
18 Q. And those full-time employees are the type that
19 would get normal benefits as corporations give them?
20 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
21 Q. Whereas the part-timers don't get those
22 benefits?
23 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, if a person
24 works 20 hours or more a week, they get the benefits.
25 Q. All right. Hourly employees don't get --
Page 16
1 hourly people don't get benefits?
2 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: If they're hourly and
3 work 20 hours --
4 Q. Oh, I see.
5 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: -- a week or more they
6 get benefits.
7 Q. Is there a standard rate that you pay these
8 individuals for their hourly work?
9 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It varies based on
10 their education and their experience and of course the
11 job position.
12 Q. What is the range, if you might tell me?
13 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Eleven dollars an hour
14 up to -- and again, I think it's best if it's looked at --
15 I do have these folders here that answer it, so if you
16 don't mind, I'll --
17 Q. Go ahead and look at them.
18 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: -- try to refer to
19 that.
20 Q. Yeah.
21 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Let's see here. I
22 need to find the current. Oh, here's the rate. Okay.
23 This is the second page. Most of our hourly employees
24 would be in the TA area, so that ranges from eleven to
25 $20 an hour.
Page 17
1 Q. All right.
2 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That's not counting
3 benefits.
4 Q. All right. If they are given benefits?
5 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
6 Q. Not all of the TAs are given benefits, are
7 they?
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No. But most of them
9 do because they're working more than 20 plus hours a
10 week.
11 Q. All right. And when you say benefits, have you
12 determined what the cost of those benefits would be on a
13 monthly basis?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I know that our --
15 we're paying for health insurance as a company, we're
16 paying about $11,000 a month. If you put in payroll
17 taxes plus health insurance plus 401K, which we have the
18 option to match on, then it's somewhere between 17 to 20
19 percent.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Of hourly pay.
22 Q. Sure. Now, these -- these TAs who are charged
23 out at somewhere between eleven and $20 an hour, I should
24 say which are paid between eleven and $20 per hour, you
25 have a contract to provide services for special education
Page 18
1 children, a contract with the Department of Health to
2 provide services to special education children, do you
3 not?
4 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
5 Q. And this contract with the Department of Health
6 is related to the Felix Consent Decree?
7 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
8 Q. And is it my -- our records show that this
9 contract was effective July 1, 1999 and awarded pursuant
10 to an RFP?
11 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Now, what do you charge the Department
13 of Health then for the same services for which you pay
14 the employee eleven to $20 an hour, what is again the
15 bottom and the top of the range to how much you charge
16 the State?
17 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: The bottom is $15 an
18 hour and the top is 29.
19 Q. Okay. Is that the top rate you pay then for
20 these hourly employees? I'm sorry. Is that the top rate
21 you charge for these hourly employees?
22 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: For that category of
23 fair public aid, yes.
24 Q. Right. There are different higher categories
25 though where you charge hourly employees, do you not?
Page 19
1 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
2 Q. And what is the highest rate you pay for any
3 type of employee like that, the highest rate you charge
4 the State for any type of employee like that?
5 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, again, there's
6 different levels of care.
7 Q. Well, give me some examples, please.
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Okay. If it's for an
9 intensive in home worker, and these are typically Masters
10 level or higher individuals, the top rate -- if they're a
11 Masters unlicensed individual, the top rate is $70 an
12 hour, and the range that we pay our providers is $40 to
13 $60 an hour. If they're a licensed individual, the top
14 rate that we charge the State is $90 an hour and we pay
15 our providers $80 an hour. Could I mention something on
16 the therapeutic aide?
17 Q. Therapeutic aide, yeah, sure.
18 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. Also involved in
19 the cost of those services is the fact that we have to
20 provide extensive training to the therapeutic aides and
21 extensive supervision, and we pay our aides to attend the
22 training as well as to attend supervision and we pay for
23 the cost of supervision. And the supervision can be
24 anywhere from one to two hours a week off site, more on
25 site and then extensive training throughout the year. So
Page 20
1 that is all part of what we're reimbursed by the State
2 for.
3 Q. Well, when you say part of, are you saying that
4 there is a separate category for supervision of these
5 individuals that you charge the State for?
6 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, it's included in
7 the amount that we were reimbursed hourly by the State.
8 Q. Right. But you understand that for any for
9 profit organization, the cost of supervision is a cost
10 that's borne by the corporation, not by the State. Do
11 you understand that?
12 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, for either profit
13 or not for profit, that's correct. I just -- I think
14 it's useful to know that that particular category of
15 employee requires intensive outlay by any organization to
16 provide that service.
17 Q. So how did you decide what the rates were that
18 you were going to charge the State then? I mean let's
19 take an example of a person, intensive in home level
20 person with an MA, you charge the State $70 an hour.
21 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
22 Q. And you pay that person 40 to 60.
23 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
24 Q. All right. How did you come to, for example,
25 the $70 per hour level?
Page 21
1 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Those rates were set
2 by the State as the cap rates for that level of service
3 for that level of provider.
4 Q. The top rate?
5 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
6 Q. And although you charged $70 an hour to the
7 State though, how is it that you pay these individuals 40
8 to 60, a range like that?
9 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It's dependent on
10 their level of experience and training, how much
11 supervision we have to provide them, because there's
12 variability in that, how much training we have to provide
13 for them.
14 Q. Are any of your -- your people who work for
15 CARE, whether they be independent contractors, hourly,
16 part-time, full-time, from the mainland and actually
17 provide services from there? I don't mean from there
18 necessarily, but come here to provide services?
19 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We -- we've recruited.
20 There was a strong demand, and we've advertised in
21 professional organizations and we were successful at
22 recruiting in a number of people.
23 Q. And do these people live here now or do they
24 commute to provide services?
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: They live here. We
Page 22
1 have placed them -- we have them living in Waianae and
2 all sorts of places.
3 Q. Well, when you say we have them --
4 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We help them find
5 living arrangements, we encourage them to live in the
6 area where they would be providing services and to become
7 a part of those communities.
8 Q. And do you pay them travel, living allowances,
9 things of that nature?
10 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, we do not.
11 Q. Now, what type of services was CARE contracted
12 to provide the State in this July 1999 contract?
13 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Assessment, at that
14 time case management, psychological testing, medication
15 monitoring, psychiatric evaluation, court testimony,
16 treatment planning, educational planning, school
17 consultation, intensive in home services, therapeutic
18 aide services and biopsychosocial services.
19 Q. What is biopsychosocial services?
20 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It's a program
21 typically run after school or during intersession or
22 summer hours, and it provides individual and group
23 therapy and activities that are aimed to enhance the
24 student's ability to profit from their education and
25 function in the community.
Page 23
1 Q. Would these be the type of services, for
2 example, where a student would be taken to a movie?
3 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Not typically.
4 Q. Well, are they taken to movies, although not
5 typically?
6 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Maybe once or twice a
7 year they have been, if that.
8 Q. What about taking them to other types of
9 functions other than movies, for example?
10 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: The types of functions
11 that we've engaged in with our students have been
12 agricultural, we have taro patches, we've taken students
13 to various community settings where they haven't been
14 before. For example, some students haven't been to the
15 library ever. Some of them have never seen the UH
16 campus. Some of them have never been on some of the
17 hikes around here. Some of them have never been to a
18 mall, for example.
19 Q. Shopping center?
20 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: A shopping center, and
21 we have an intensive ratio typically not more than three
22 students per one staff, and the focus is to help these
23 students be able to function as a small group in that
24 type of a setting as well as to provide material for
25 therapeutic intervention.
Page 24
1 Q. One child -- excuse me, one cell, you've
2 mentioned no more than three students?
3 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
4 Q. You say? And how many TAs are assigned to that
5 one cell?
6 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: There's usually one
7 worker for those three children. In some cases we have
8 been asked to take on a child that is far more severe
9 than what is typically able to be handled in a community
10 based program, children who without warning will bite you
11 severely, this sort of thing, break out windows in vans,
12 and in those cases, we were willing to take them on if
13 another TA could be provided, and we've actually had good
14 success with that. We've been able to eventually drop
15 off the TAs and see children that one never would have
16 believed could function function.
17 Q. You're saying in those cases you have a one to
18 one --
19 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. Sometimes a two
20 to one.
21 Q. All right, but the one to three though, that is
22 your typical type of --
23 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
24 Q. -- situation, right?
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
Page 25
1 Q. So if they take them to the University of
2 Hawaii library, that one TA takes three people, do they
3 charge for each one of them?
4 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No. Well, they're not
5 a TA. This is separate from the TAs. They're part of
6 the biopsychosocial program, and that program is
7 reimbursed per child that goes.
8 Q. Per child per hour?
9 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
10 Q. All right. So that if three children go and
11 spend three hours going to the library and coming back to
12 wherever they live, you've charged nine hours to the
13 State for that work?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That's right. At the
15 rate that they've assigned.
16 Q. And how many persons are with these three
17 students for those three hours typically?
18 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Could be one or two
19 staff usually.
20 Q. Is it usually one unless there is any special
21 problems, is it usually one?
22 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It varies because they
23 usually don't go in a group of three. There may be, you
24 know, six kids or something like that.
25 Q. I see. Well, six kids with two TAs or two
Page 26
1 adults who -- I'm not sure what title they have.
2 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That would be the
3 minimum would be two.
4 Q. Minimum two for six people, for six students?
5 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
6 Q. So that two people are charging in the case of
7 six students, two people are charging for 18 hours on a
8 three hour trip?
9 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right. That's -- it's
10 not the people that are charging, it's the program that
11 is charging.
12 Q. I understand the program is charging, but
13 you're only manning that cell or that group with two
14 people, so you only have to pay two people for attending
15 and caring for and treating, you might say, six students,
16 right?
17 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
18 Q. And that six students, that task that they may
19 be doing with those six students would be something like
20 taking them to the shopping center, for example?
21 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It might be doing
22 that. It might be doing group therapy, it might be
23 taking them to a recreational activity, and during the
24 time that they are doing that, other members of the
25 program are frequently in an IEP meeting, meeting with
Page 27
1 teachers, school counselors, meeting with the family,
2 providing family therapy, so this is a program that
3 provides multiple services at the same time.
4 Q. I understand. I understand there are many
5 facets to that, ma'am, but if we try to take each one in
6 and of itself and try to determine what charges are being
7 charged to the State for what services that are being
8 performed, there's no question that in that situation
9 where you have six students going to, for example, a
10 shopping center for three hours, 18 hours is being
11 charged to the State, right?
12 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: There are also other
13 services going on at the same time for those students.
14 Q. For the shopping center?
15 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
16 Q. For these same students?
17 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: For those same
18 students. A therapist is potentially meeting with
19 parents during that time. Another therapist is perhaps
20 meeting with teachers, there's a variety of activities.
21 This is not a one on one program with kids so it's not
22 correct to say that only two staff are providing services
23 to those six kids.
24 Q. In how many cases though, ma'am, would you have
25 a situation where you have two therapists giving services
Page 28
1 to six kids to take them to a shopping center in which
2 the parents of those six children, students are being
3 given some other type of service? How many?
4 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Frequently. I mean,
5 for example, last Friday we had I think five kids who
6 were attended to by two staff, and we had two other staff
7 in three different IEPs and another staff meeting with
8 parents.
9 Q. For those exact five children?
10 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
11 Q. Now, if we were to ask you to provide us that
12 type of data, could you do that?
13 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Probably I'd have to
14 go back through calendars, but that's what a
15 biopsychosocial program is. It's not an individual
16 service. It's -- we have to provide a multiplicity of
17 services.
18 Q. But you understand that -- well, are you saying
19 though in each case where there is that type of service
20 being performed where two or so personnel from CARE take
21 six children somewhere, for example, to a shopping
22 center, that in the great majority of the cases other
23 services are being provided to their family, a great
24 majority?
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: They're being provided
Page 29
1 to the family, being provided in interaction with the
2 school because part of the goal of this service is to get
3 the children functioning in schools, functioning in their
4 community and out of our program. And our statistics
5 indicate that we are typically -- not always, but
6 typically able to beat the times that we've been provided
7 to do that task in. And so we're providing multiple
8 levels of services at the same time to accomplish those
9 goals.
10 Q. I understand. I understand, but in terms of
11 providing services to the school, that's something you
12 can do any time, not necessarily while these children are
13 away, right?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, not necessarily,
15 because often times people -- school personnel are not
16 available during school hours, for example. They may be
17 available during the precise hours that we're having to
18 also work with the children, so --
19 Q. Let me see if I understand. You don't
20 necessarily set up these field trips with these students
21 when you know that your other people can go to school and
22 meet with their counselors or teachers or whatever that
23 might be. They aren't set up in conjunction with each
24 other, are they?
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No. What happens is
Page 30
1 there are set hours for students to attend this program.
2 They attend this program typically after school. And
3 many of the other activities also by scheduling needs of
4 the school or by parents occur simultaneously.
5 Q. Sure.
6 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We don't set those
7 things up.
8 Q. Do you provide respite care?
9 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Okay, now we're
10 talking a different category of service. We're out of
11 biopsychosocial.
12 Q. I understand that. I'm just want to ask you,
13 I'm asking you do you provide respite care?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, we do not.
15 Q. All right. So --
16 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Can I make one
17 comment?
18 Q. Sure.
19 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: The actual percentage
20 of time spent in taking the student on a field trip is
21 usually very small. It's commonly done on a Saturday
22 when you have a longer length of time with the child
23 who's actually in the program. It would be too much --
24 too intense for the child to be in where we would
25 normally take care of them all day long, so the child --
Page 31
1 a group of children would be brought into the community
2 to experience different types of things in the community,
3 as you said, malls and things like that. But a lot of
4 the times it's for sport -- to teach them how to play
5 tennis or throw a football and things like that.
6 Q. Or take them to a sporting event?
7 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: No, I don't think
8 we've ever done that.
9 Q. I don't mean necessarily a college level event
10 now, it could be a secondary school level.
11 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: No, that's --
12 Q. All right.
13 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: That's something to
14 consider but no, we haven't.
15 Q. All right.
16 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Normally during the
17 week time there's a structured activity where you have
18 some academic work, the teaching them how to speak, for
19 example. You have some social skill building and then we
20 work with them in a recreational area on their social
21 skills and daily activities. So most of the time is put
22 into that. If you're talking about field trips, there's
23 a very small percentage of the time.
24 Q. When you say small percentage, sir, what do you
25 mean?
Page 32
1 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, it's like
2 Saturday, a few hours, versus -- and that's it. And
3 they're in the program for the whole week.
4 Q. Okay. Now, these -- strike that. Do you
5 service a certain part of the island or State more than
6 others? Or is it throughout the island?
7 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We're on all the
8 islands except for Kauai, and I have a breakdown of that.
9 Q. Sure. Feel free to look at it. I mean feel
10 free to refer to it.
11 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Okay. About 28
12 percent of our clients are from the Big Island. Six
13 percent are from Central District, 14 percent from
14 Windward District, eleven percent are from Leeward
15 District, 14 percent are from Diamond Head District, nine
16 percent from Kalihi-Palama and 18 percent from Maui.
17 Q. I see. That's a breakdown of the students that
18 you provide services for.
19 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
20 Q. And getting back to the questions I was asking
21 about biopsychosocial services, then whatever you provide
22 in that category of service is something that's
23 prescribed by someone or directed by someone as a part of
24 an IEP?
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That's correct.
Page 33
1 Q. Who does that directing or prescribing? The
2 group, or is it a psychologist or what?
3 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It's an IEP team.
4 Q. It's what?
5 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It's the IEP team who
6 does that.
7 Q. Do these -- do you subcontract with providers
8 such as psychologists, do you not?
9 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
10 Q. Are they generally subcontractors or employees?
11 Psychologists, I'm talking about?
12 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: A licensed
13 psychologist is typically an independent contractor.
14 Q. Okay. There was a name that came up in
15 reviewing documents, and the name was Dr. Daniel LeGoff,
16 L-E-G-O-F-F.
17 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
18 Q. Who is Dr. LeGoff?
19 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: He's an independent
20 contractor who's a licensed psychologist.
21 Q. I understand that there was some concern by
22 CAMHD about the amount of services that Dr. LeGoff had
23 billed the State in August of 1999. Are you aware of
24 that?
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No. That was not
Page 34
1 communicated.
2 Q. Well, according to review of CAMHD documents,
3 Dr. LeGoff's billings totaled 1301 hours, 1301 hours for
4 25 days in that period of time. We're talking about an
5 average of about 52 hours a day, which of course one
6 person can't provide. What would that have been for
7 where he would have billed 1301 hours for 25 days?
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't believe that
9 1300 hour figure is correct. I'm wondering if you're
10 talking in terms of units of service but -- because CAMHD
11 breaks things into units versus hours. Dr. LeGoff,
12 however, does provide a lot of group therapy hours. And
13 so -- and whenever you have a provider who is doing
14 group, therapy, the immediate reaction when you look at
15 the report is oh, their hours are high, because you
16 charge per child that you have in group therapy and we
17 are reimbursed per child. The rate that we are
18 reimbursed at and the rate that the provider is
19 reimbursed at is much lower than what you would be
20 reimbursed at for doing individual work.
21 Q. Oh, for example, doing individual work you
22 would be reimbursed at $90 per hour for a clinical
23 psychologist?
24 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right. Right.
25 Q. If it were in a group setting though, how would
Page 35
1 that be reduced? How would that $90 an hour rate be
2 reduced, how much?
3 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Okay. We are paid $35
4 an hour for the group.
5 Q. $35?
6 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
7 Q. Okay. But if in that hour that person
8 providing the services were to provide services to a
9 group of six, for example --
10 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
11 Q. He's getting way more than $90 an hour? I mean
12 you're charging way more than $90 an hour, are you not?
13 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We charge -- if there
14 is six, we charge per CAMHD for every hour of service.
15 Q. That's what I mean.
16 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That was provided, so
17 that would be six times 35.
18 Q. $210 for that one hour?
19 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
20 Q. You would be charging CAMHD because six
21 students were involved and it was group therapy, albeit
22 at a lower rate though, for that one person is being
23 charged out at $210 an hour?
24 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right. But he --
25 yeah. $210 an hour.
Page 36
1 Q. Is that typical for your independent
2 contractors to provide group therapy like that rather
3 than one on one therapy?
4 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No. We have several
5 people who are able to do that. Structuring a group is
6 difficult. You have to have the space, you have to have
7 a large enough client base from a small enough geographic
8 area who are compatible with each other and would benefit
9 from the service. It's often to provide from a clinical
10 standpoint and an educational standpoint, it's a
11 preferred mode of treatment. It's just very difficult to
12 actually make it happen.
13 Q. I'm sorry, make it happen?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It's very difficult to
15 actually make a group happen because of the barriers of
16 geography, compatibility and having the space available
17 to do a group.
18 Q. I understand that, but in terms of the services
19 provided to the children though, obviously they need to
20 be in a situation or in a condition where they would be
21 receptive to the group therapy, right?
22 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
23 Q. If they really needed one on one therapy, you'd
24 provide that, wouldn't you?
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We would.
Page 37
1 Q. So they would be more receptive to group
2 therapy so you provide group therapy, but then what you
3 end up doing though is -- from the standpoint of the
4 State is charging multiples of $90 an hour for the same
5 service, aren't you?
6 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: A couple of things.
7 One is that it's not necessarily that a child is more
8 receptive to one mode of treatment than to another. A
9 child may require multiple modes of treatment to
10 accomplish various goals.
11 Q. Might be. But nonetheless, when you put a
12 group together like that and have one provider, one
13 person, one professional provide services to multiple
14 children, albeit at a lower rate per hour --
15 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Uh huh.
16 Q. -- you end up charging the State multiples of
17 that $90 top rate that you're normally allowed to charge
18 for one person --
19 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
20 Q. -- or one child, right?
21 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No. We charge the
22 group rate to the State for that one child for that group
23 service.
24 Q. I understand, but you know, the groups can be
25 as large as how large, for example, typically?
Page 38
1 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I think they typically
2 were lucky to get three or four kids in a group, which is
3 another reason why people tend not to like it, because
4 they don't do so well by groups.
5 Q. Who doesn't do well by groups?
6 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: The therapist doesn't
7 because they're reimbursed lower, you know, also at a
8 lower rate, so for example, if a clinical psychologist
9 does not have four kids in his group or her group, they
10 lose.
11 Q. What do you pay the clinical psychologist per
12 child in that group?
13 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: $20 an hour.
14 Q. So that if it's four they get $80?
15 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Which is the same as
16 what they would get if they saw one child for individual
17 therapy.
18 Q. True. But from CARE's standpoint though, now
19 they're getting $140 per hour?
20 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
21 Q. For that service, right?
22 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
23 Q. Do you encourage group therapy like that?
24 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We have not encouraged
25 it. Again, like I say, there are a lot of barriers to
Page 39
1 providing this, and I think, you know, if we look at how
2 much group therapy we actually do here, it's two percent
3 of our total services.
4 Q. Well, in Dr. LeGoff's case though, your concept
5 of group therapy allowed him to charge for 1300 hours in
6 less than a month, in 25 days. He obviously had multiple
7 groups over that period of time, did he not?
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah. I'm still not
9 sure that that 1300 hours is correct and I guess in the
10 material we brought in, that can be looked at more
11 specifically. Dr. LeGoff typically ran -- I believe it
12 was either two or three groups a week.
13 Q. Well, all I can tell you is that the figures
14 that we looked at for biopsychosocial rehab services --
15 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, oh, I know what
16 you're referring to now. Okay. Thank you.
17 Q. Okay.
18 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That clarified things.
19 We're talking two different things, and what happened in
20 August, yes, you're right. When we bill biopsychosocial
21 services, this is an artifact of the State billing
22 system. They require us to put a provider's name on the
23 biopsychosocial service, which is the clinician. Okay.
24 We had asked if we could just have a dummy clinician as
25 the person or somehow our CARE ID number, but it just
Page 40
1 couldn't work with the MIS system, so they asked us to
2 put a provider name, and for August of 1999 Dr. LeGoff
3 was the supervising psychologist for the biopsychosocial
4 program, so all the hours of the biopsychosocial program
5 went under his name plus his group hours plus his
6 individual hours.
7 Q. I see.
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Okay. He didn't even
9 get paid for supervising the biopsychosocial program.
10 Q. So how would we break out then how much exactly
11 was charged for what in this case?
12 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We have a complete
13 breakout for you in the materials that you asked for, and
14 it tells you by month and it shows you by level of care
15 exactly what was what.
16 Q. Okay. And if the auditor's office wants to
17 come in and look at those documents or documents related
18 to that in your office, you would have no objection to
19 that, would you?
20 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, we have no
21 objections to that. We've been audited several times and
22 anybody can come any time.
23 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, are there other
24 providers in the State that provide the type of services
25 you do, your company does, CARE?
Page 41
1 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, yes.
2 Q. And who are, if I may ask, are the major
3 providers in the State?
4 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: There's several.
5 There's Alakai Na Keiki, Child and Family Services,
6 Catholic Charities, Hawaii Behavior Health, Hawaii
7 Education and Counseling Center, North Shore Mental
8 Health, Hale Na'aupono, Aloha Care, Tiffy, PACT, I
9 probably left out people I didn't mean to, if I did.
10 Q. That's fine. The major providers would be
11 yourself and Alakai Na Keiki, major ones?
12 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We are major ones. I
13 don't know if we are the major ones, but we are major.
14 Q. Now, let me ask you, are you aware of any
15 complaints to CAMHD, Department of Health about other
16 providers?
17 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: About other providers?
18 Q. Yes.
19 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No. I don't think I
20 am.
21 Q. Now, I understand that initially you mentioned
22 Hoa Hana -- Hoa Hana Institute. Hoa Hana Institute.
23 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
24 Q. Was where you started doing this type of work?
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
Page 42
1 Q. And that was incorporated when, ma'am?
2 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It was either late '96
3 or early '97.
4 Q. Okay. And my understanding was it ultimately
5 was dissolved, is that correct?
6 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct.
7 Q. We saw two names. We saw Hoa Hana Institute,
8 Inc., and we saw Hoa Hana Foundation. What is the
9 difference?
10 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Hoa Hana Foundation
11 was a not for profit.
12 Q. Is that still doing business in any fashion?
13 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Not that I'm aware of.
14 Q. The Hoa Hana Institute, Inc. was a for profit
15 professional corporation?
16 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That's correct.
17 Q. And it was started by whom?
18 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: By Dr. Richard Kravetz
19 and Dr. Linda Hufano and Dennis and myself.
20 Q. All right. And for how long did that
21 institution provide services?
22 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Two years.
23 Q. And when then did -- well, strike that. Am I
24 to understand that the owners of that corporation were
25 the four individuals you named, Drs. Kravetz, Hufano and
Page 43
1 your husband and yourself?
2 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That's right.
3 Q. Okay. And did that -- well, strike that. Why
4 did that organization end or dissolve or whatever the
5 term is that caused the business to end?
6 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We probably just had
7 some different ideas about how we wanted to operate.
8 Q. All right. And there was litigation though
9 that ensued after the breakup, wasn't there?
10 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
11 Q. By Dr. Kravetz against your husband and
12 yourself?
13 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
14 Q. And your organization, also?
15 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
16 Q. CARE?
17 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
18 Q. What were the allegations of that litigation?
19 Or strike that. That litigation is completed, is it not?
20 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, it is.
21 Q. It ended with some type of stipulation for
22 dismissal with prejudice two years after it was brought?
23 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
24 Q. Two years or so, and I understand it was
25 brought in 19 --
Page 44
1 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Actually it ended that
2 year.
3 Q. 1999?
4 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
5 Q. And it ended a year later or shortly
6 thereafter?
7 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It ended in '99.
8 Q. All right. Okay. What were the allegations of
9 that litigation?
10 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: You know, without
11 looking at the document I can't give you a really
12 specific answer on that. A general answer was that there
13 was concern about did providers from Hoa Hana split
14 evenly between the two groups and it was difficult to
15 count at that time who went where and there was some
16 slight dispute in that area. But it was resolvable.
17 Q. But he brought -- it was Mr. -- Dr. Kravetz who
18 brought that lawsuit against your company and yourselves?
19 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That's right.
20 Q. Individually, right?
21 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
22 Q. And his claim was that you were taking more
23 providers than you should have?
24 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Or that more providers
25 went to us than should have gone to us.
Page 45
1 Q. And how was that litigation resolved?
2 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It was resolved by
3 attempting to determine which group got how many
4 providers and dividing the assets accordingly.
5 Q. Did any money change hands?
6 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Any money change
7 hands?
8 Q. Yeah.
9 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It's just the assets
10 of the corporation, we attempted to divide the assets of
11 the corporation according to the split of providers.
12 Q. When you say assets though, what are you
13 referring to?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, there are
15 whatever -- what do you call them?
16 Q. Accounts receivable?
17 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Desks and tables,
18 collectibles, that sort of thing. Yeah.
19 Q. All right. That was what the lawsuit was
20 about, in part?
21 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah. It was just an
22 attempt to make sure we got that all really nailed down.
23 Q. Were there -- in the case of Hoa Hana for that
24 two years that it was in existence, were there problems
25 in terms of CAMHD complaining or having complaints about
Page 46
1 services that were being provided in any way?
2 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't recall that
3 there were any serious complaints, no.
4 Q. Well, how about complaints about the manner in
5 which Hoa Hana was supervising its postdoctorate fellows,
6 its MAs, BAs, things of that nature?
7 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No. At the time we
8 were beginning -- we did have postdoctorals in there and
9 we communicated with CAMHD about how they wanted us to do
10 supervision. We had requested that they be able to do
11 assessments and we worked with CAMHD on a protocol to
12 determine exactly what would be a proper way to do this
13 because one of the things that I think all four of us
14 felt strongly about was that we needed to increase the
15 provider pool for the State of people and find a way to
16 make sure that they were well trained and well
17 supervised, and I felt like that was a collaborative
18 effort.
19 Q. Who is Gary Beck?
20 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: He's an individual who
21 works for CAMHD.
22 Q. Do you recall a memo in April of 1998 written
23 by Mr. Beck in which he cited lack -- or a lack of or
24 insufficient supervision at Hoa Hana and that Hoa Hana
25 did not account for supervision of all its postdoctorate
Page 47
1 fellows, BA and MA level case managers, therapists,
2 psychology interns, practicum students and trainers? Do
3 you recall anything like that?
4 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I am -- I'm sorry,
5 that's awhile back. I don't really remember.
6 Q. You don't recall anything like that?
7 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, I'm not saying it
8 didn't happen, it's just in the context of everything,
9 I'm not sure. I don't --
10 Q. You don't recall -- well, a memo like that if
11 you had possession of it and reviewed it would have
12 caused you concern, would it not? If someone were to
13 accuse you of that, that would have caused you concern,
14 would it not?
15 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, what I recall,
16 okay, and I'm thinking, trying to go back on this and
17 think on this, what I recall is that we had gone through
18 an audit -- we typically have audits by CAMHD at least
19 twice a year and we had gone through an audit and Gary
20 had pointed out that he wanted a certain type of
21 documentation than what we were doing and he wanted a
22 plan written up, and okay, and my best guess is that what
23 you're referring to was his documentation of what he was
24 asking for and that I recall that I provided that
25 documentation for them.
Page 48
1 Q. Well --
2 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: And that sort of
3 formed the basis of what Hoa Hana did in terms of future
4 trainings for this particular group of individuals and I
5 would guess what many organizations did after that for
6 providing for training.
7 Q. Well, what you're saying is that -- what I read
8 from that did occur, and as a result of that, you changed
9 your practices to comply with what the DOH wanted, right?
10 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Actually, we were
11 doing it, it was just a matter of how it was -- how they
12 wanted it documented and that's what was changed.
13 Q. Are you saying that the -- what they were
14 suggesting was completely wrong? That what they were
15 suggesting was that you did not -- you did not account
16 for the supervision of these various individuals. Are
17 you saying that they were wrong in making that claim?
18 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No. They wanted us to
19 account for it differently and we did.
20 Q. That's what I'm asking you. Were you
21 accounting for all of them then?
22 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. Oh, yeah.
23 Q. Who is Aime -- Dr. Aime McCullough, A-I-M-E,
24 M-C-C-U-L-L-O-U-G-H?
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She's a psychologist.
Page 49
1 Q. And was there -- was there a complaint by or to
2 CAMHD and DOH that she was supervising too many BA and MA
3 level case managers, I think the number was 42?
4 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't remember that.
5 Q. You don't remember any --
6 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She did not report to
7 me.
8 Q. To whom did she report?
9 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Dr. Hufano.
10 Q. I see. When you formed that organization,
11 ma'am, Hoa Hana back in 1997, before it came to being,
12 whose idea was it to put that -- that group together and
13 to form this Hoa Hana Institute?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, the way it came
15 to be is that for years, many of us knew each other as
16 professionals working in the field and off and on we
17 would all talk with each other about how it would be nice
18 to be able to, you know, provide these types of services,
19 and when that opportunity arose, we formed together, I
20 recall -- I don't know who approached who first. There
21 had been conversations for years about trying to provide
22 these services.
23 Q. By that time were the Kravetzes social
24 acquaintances of yours, you and your husband?
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
Page 50
1 Q. So it wasn't any one person coming up with the
2 idea, you kind of collectively came up with the idea of
3 starting Hoa Hana Institute?
4 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
5 Q. When that happened though, Dr. Kravetz was
6 still with the Department of Education -- Department of
7 Health, wasn't he?
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, he was.
9 Q. And he was with CAMHD, wasn't he?
10 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
11 Q. And to your knowledge, wasn't it Dr. Kravetz
12 who wrote the RFP for the contract that Hoa Hana got as
13 soon as it started?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
15 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
16 Q. You know that for a fact?
17 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
18 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
19 Q. Well, how long after Dr. Kravetz left -- left
20 DOH did Hoa Hana receive its first contract with DOH?
21 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I'm not exactly sure
22 of a date that he left DOH, he was in charge of the day
23 treatment program. He was not in the administrative
24 section of CAMHD and he was not involved in any of the
25 proposal developments or --
Page 51
1 Q. Was he involved in --
2 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: -- any of that sort of
3 thing.
4 Q. -- any of the types of services that Hoa Hana
5 provided once it started --
6 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
7 Q. -- that type of service?
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
9 Q. But the time from after which Dr. Kravetz left
10 the employment of the State, DOH, until Hoa Hana opened
11 its doors was about how long? And in fact, it may have
12 overlapped such that Hoa Hana might have already been in
13 business when he left but --
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, he was not an
15 employee of the State when we were in business, and I'm
16 sorry, I don't know exactly what his termination date
17 might has been.
18 Q. Well, it certainly wasn't a year, was it?
19 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I'm sorry. I just
20 didn't keep track. I really didn't.
21 Q. I understand that but --
22 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know.
23 Q. -- this is only four years ago and you were
24 socially acquainted with him. And if in fact Dr. Kravetz
25 stayed out of work for a year, you would have known that,
Page 52
1 wouldn't you?
2 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, people were
3 doing a variety of things, you know. They had private
4 practices and that sort of thing as well and so --
5 Q. Dr. Kravetz though, was he in private practice
6 right after he left the State?
7 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I believe he had a
8 private practice.
9 Q. In addition to what he was doing at the State?
10 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah. I believe he
11 had some sort of practice that was going like most people
12 in the State.
13 Q. Well, our records suggest that he left -- when
14 he left the State and when Hoa Hana opened its doors, it
15 was a very short period of time, definitely less than a
16 year. Now, I could be wrong but does that sound right to
17 you?
18 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It could be. I mean I
19 think you'd really need to ask him. I mean I'm not privy
20 to that information.
21 Q. I understand, but you were co-owners of this
22 company, were you not?
23 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
24 Q. Did you have any concerns that perhaps what
25 Dr. Kravetz was doing was not in accordance with the
Page 53
1 rules and regulations under which he would have been
2 under as an employment of the State of Hawaii?
3 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, I did not, because
4 he was not in any position to have any input on any type
5 of proposal that was being generated.
6 Q. So you were aware that there were such rules
7 then, were you not?
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
9 Q. And in your mind, those rules were satisfied
10 when he joined Hoa Hana?
11 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
12 Q. And in your mind there was no -- no breaching
13 of any rule or regulation or law by what Dr. Kravetz did?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That's correct.
15 Q. When he joined Hoa Hana, is that correct?
16 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
17 Q. Do you know that because you sought legal
18 advice, without telling me what it was, because you
19 sought legal advice or just because you know that?
20 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I -- at the time we
21 knew who could and could not. I mean that was --
22 Q. You knew that?
23 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
24 Q. All right. Now, did Hoa Hana ever have to
25 repay -- or strike that. Did the Department of Health
Page 54
1 ever ask Hoa Hana while it was in operation to refund
2 money for services? In other words, payments were made
3 and a request was made by the State to refund some of
4 that money?
5 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't believe so,
6 but I'm not the best person to ask because my involvement
7 in Hoa Hana was clinical and I was not involved in that
8 end of the business.
9 Q. Has CARE ever been asked to refund money?
10 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, we have.
11 Q. What would have been the largest amount that
12 you were asked to refund?
13 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I think on audit it
14 was $4,000, and that came down to disagreements over if a
15 person used the word observe in a note that was for
16 therapy, there was disagreements as to whether it was
17 okay for that to be a billable charge or not, and at some
18 point it became not worth arguing about. It was going to
19 cost us and everybody else more to argue than not.
20 Q. How about any complaints that were made by
21 parents or others about a Ms. Virginia Hatfield, a
22 Dr. Herman Gill resulting in a request for refund?
23 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: For which --
24 Q. I'm talking about Hoa Hana now.
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, for Hoa Hana?
Page 55
1 Again, I don't have benefit of looking at any documents
2 on that, but my best recollection is that there was a
3 difficult case, and sometimes when that occurs, there can
4 be concerns that are expressed by people receiving the
5 services and I believe that case was satisfactorily
6 resolved.
7 Q. Well, the complaint though that was
8 Ms. Hatfield had duplicated billings for services
9 performed, duplicated, charged twice or more for the same
10 service?
11 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't believe that
12 was the situation that occurred as we resolved it.
13 Q. You don't believe that that was the complaint
14 that was made though?
15 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No. As we resolved --
16 that may or may not have been the complaint. I don't
17 recall any specifics of that end of it, but as I recall
18 we were able to resolve it satisfactorily.
19 Q. All right. One last area, ma'am, and the
20 reason you're being asked this is because we have
21 knowledge that you have information about it. So answer
22 these questions to the best of your ability. It relates
23 to a person by the name of Kaniu Kinimaka-Stocksdale.
24 You know Ms. Stocksdale, do you not?
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, I do.
Page 56
1 Q. And you've had conversations with her in the
2 recent past, have you not?
3 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, I have.
4 Q. And the last time you had a conversation with
5 Ms. Stocksdale was when, ma'am, about?
6 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Early summer, June.
7 Q. June? And what was the nature of that contact
8 with Miss Stocksdale? By the way, you are aware that
9 Miss Stocksdale is the head of Na Laukoa, another group
10 that provides services to DOH and DOE?
11 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
12 Q. Are you familiar with Na Laukoa and the
13 services it provides, the types of services it provides?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Minimally.
15 Q. Minimally. But how is it that you know
16 Ms. Stocksdale then?
17 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I'd met her at
18 provider meetings. She talked with me.
19 Q. Okay. Do you consider yourself friends?
20 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, I've met her on
21 three occasions, I believe, and it was cordial.
22 Q. All right. Now, what was the occasion in June
23 of this year when you met with Ms. Stocksdale?
24 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We had a meeting in
25 our office and we were discussing -- there had been some
Page 57
1 indication, somebody had thought that we should meet to
2 discuss the possible -- that we should at least know who
3 was doing what on the Big Island because she had services
4 on the Big Island, so we were meeting to discuss that.
5 Q. Where was this meeting?
6 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: In our office.
7 Q. Your office?
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
9 Q. Here.
10 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
11 Q. All right. Continue. Oh, well, the subject of
12 that conversation in June of this year relates to what
13 this committee is investigating, does it not?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Probably.
15 Q. Yeah. If you would, please, ma'am, will you
16 tell us what conversation transpired?
17 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, she was talking
18 to me and I was trying to understand what it was that she
19 was --
20 Q. Saying?
21 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Saying.
22 Q. And up to that time, albeit only on several
23 occasions, that you met her on several occasions, had you
24 found when she discussed matters with you that she, from
25 what you could tell, was basically honest?
Page 58
1 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I had no reason to
2 disbelieve her.
3 Q. Sure. Nothing she told you was later found to
4 be incorrect or untrue, was it?
5 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
6 Q. All right. So then she did give you
7 information, ma'am, will you please be a little more
8 specific as to what that information was?
9 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She talked about the
10 challenges that her organization was facing financially.
11 Q. All right.
12 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She talked a lot about
13 Dr. LeMahieu.
14 Q. Okay.
15 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I asked her after
16 awhile about -- I mean I guess I said eventually it seems
17 like that's a very special person to you. And well,
18 actually I guess I asked her what it was that she wanted
19 from me and she said that she needed a loan because she --
20 well, she said that money had been withheld from them
21 because some other providers hadn't produced paperwork
22 that needed to be done. They had been behind I think on
23 GE taxes, I guess payroll taxes, and so she wanted a loan
24 and I thought maybe she was looking to sell her company
25 or something. But no, she wanted a loan. She asked that
Page 59
1 I support Dr. LeMahieu and I didn't know exactly what
2 that meant. And then I asked her -- then I wasn't in any
3 position to give her a loan. It would have been nice if
4 we were a profitable for profit, but we weren't. And so
5 I asked her or I said it seems like Dr. LeMahieu is very
6 special and then she acknowledged that he was and talked
7 extensively about their relationship.
8 Q. Now, was it June of this year or last year?
9 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: This year.
10 Q. This year. What was the amount of the loan
11 that she was asking for?
12 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It varied from 100 to
13 200,000.
14 Q. When you say varied --
15 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, she gave me --
16 she sort of put out different amounts that she needed.
17 Q. Oh, okay. But in discussing that relationship
18 though, she discussed -- she told you about the manner in
19 which her company and herself was going to gain income as
20 a result of actions that were going to take place, right,
21 about things that were going to take place in the near
22 future with her company and herself and Dr. LeMahieu?
23 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Well --
24 Q. Well, let me strike that. Let me start back
25 again. She did tell you what had happened in the past as
Page 60
1 to how Na Laukoa got its contract with the Department of
2 Education, right?
3 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
4 Q. What did she tell you about that?
5 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She told me that in
6 discussions with Dr. LeMahieu or other individuals that
7 they'd been offered this opportunity to bid on providing
8 technical -- or not bid, but to do technical assistance --
9 technical assistance contracts --
10 Q. Targeted technical assistance?
11 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Thank you. I couldn't
12 remember what that stood for, but that's what they had
13 been asked or been offered to do.
14 Q. Did she not tell you that Dr. LeMahieu had told
15 her that he was going to set up a situation where he
16 would be given what we commonly call super powers to set
17 up a situation where her company would be given this
18 contract to do targeted technical assistance? Did she
19 not tell you that?
20 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It was along those
21 lines, yes.
22 Q. Yes. And so that what she had told you was
23 there was a plan to set up a situation in which
24 Dr. LeMahieu and perhaps others would be given super
25 powers and these super powers would be used to benefit
Page 61
1 Ms. Stocksdale's company and herself, right? She told
2 you that?
3 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
4 Q. And you were aware at that time that
5 Ms. Stocksdale had a personal relationship with
6 Dr. LeMahieu?
7 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She described that to
8 me.
9 Q. She did? An intimate personal relationship?
10 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, she did.
11 Q. But she did mention the fact that these super
12 powers are going to be obtained at least to benefit her
13 company or herself?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That was one of the
15 benefits, and actually she was asking me to support
16 Dr. LeMahieu to become the Felix czar.
17 Q. Felix czar, C-Z-A-R?
18 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
19 Q. What did she say about how this was going to
20 happen, how Dr. LeMahieu was going to become the Felix
21 czar?
22 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She thought he would
23 be court appointed, but she wasn't sure that he wanted it
24 anymore.
25 Q. Did she tell you that Dr. LeMahieu had related
Page 62
1 to her that he was -- he was going to be appointed the
2 Felix czar by the Federal Court? Did she tell you that?
3 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She told me that he
4 had been approached by the court and asked if he would
5 consider being the czar.
6 Q. She didn't mention Dr. -- strike that. She
7 didn't mention Judge Ezra's name when she said the court,
8 did she?
9 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, she did.
10 Q. She claims that Judge Ezra approached
11 Dr. LeMahieu to be the Felix czar and Dr. LeMahieu wasn't
12 sure if he wanted to take the job or not? Is that what
13 she said?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Judge Ezra's name was
15 in that conversation, and I don't recall if specifically
16 he had called or met with Dr. LeMahieu or if it had come
17 through his court. But it was clear that it had come
18 through his court.
19 Q. Thank you, ma'am. I have nothing further.
20 Thank you, Mr. McLaughlin, also.
21 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
22 you. Members, we've been going for an hour, so we'd like
23 to give our court reporter a break. We'll take a short
24 five minute recess.
25 (Recess.)
Page 63
1 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
2 Members, we'd like to convene our hearing and we will
3 proceed with questioning by members. Members, given the
4 number of witnesses on our agenda today, we will strictly
5 abide by our five minute rule, and that would also apply
6 to the co-chair's questioning, so begin with -- you guys
7 can time us, but we'll begin with Vice-Chair Oshiro
8 followed by Vice-Chair Kokubun.
9 VICE-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE OSHIRO:
10 Thank you, Co-Chair Saiki.
11 BY VICE-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE OSHIRO:
12 Q. Since we only have five minutes, as much as I
13 want to ask some questions about what intimate personal
14 relationship means, I think I'll be moving to more
15 substance, and as I understand your testimony, you said
16 that you had a meeting with Miss Stocksdale in
17 approximately June of this year?
18 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That's right.
19 Q. And how was that meeting initiated? Did she
20 call your office to schedule that or --
21 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She knew someone who
22 worked for us and I guess they had had conversations and
23 that's how the meeting got set up.
24 Q. Do you remember who that person was that was
25 the contact person?
Page 64
1 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Dennis Shaw.
2 Q. Okay, and at this meeting, was anyone else
3 present besides yourself and Miss Stocksdale?
4 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: The meeting started
5 with several of us, but the conversations referred to
6 earlier were just between the two of us.
7 Q. Okay. So about how long was the duration of
8 this meeting?
9 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: The first part was
10 only maybe an hour, and that was more just discussing
11 what her company did and what our company did. The
12 second part that was between the two of us was probably
13 three or four hours.
14 Q. Okay. But when the first part of the meeting
15 happened, I guess in terms of describing the different
16 services between your two organizations, what was the --
17 I guess the purpose of that meeting if --
18 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I'm not really sure.
19 Q. Oh, okay. And later on as the conversation
20 progressed, as I understand it she wanted to borrow --
21 she asked for a loan of approximately 100 to $200,000?
22 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
23 Q. Did she at all indicate how in any way she
24 would be able to pay you back that substantial amount of
25 money?
Page 65
1 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
2 Q. So she didn't say that she had additional
3 compensation coming in in the future or didn't give any
4 kind of indications in that way?
5 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No. It was unclear.
6 At one point she said that Dr. LeMahieu had offered to
7 loan her money and --
8 Q. Did she -- I was a little confused in terms of
9 how you described she even got to the point where she
10 needed to have this kind of loan or the need for the
11 loan. You said something about providers not having a
12 backlog or not having tax clearance? Can you be a little
13 more specific?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I guess as I
15 understood it, she has different parts of her company.
16 The part of her company that provided direct services to
17 clients had had money -- they had had to give money back
18 to CAMHD because they couldn't document their services.
19 They had problems with providers turning in the correct
20 paperwork. They also apparently were behind on their GE
21 taxes and I think payroll taxes, so that was how they got
22 into difficulty. She had taken -- what she told me is
23 that she had to have money by July 1 because she had used
24 the PREL money for the -- the technical assistance thing,
25 to make up for losses in the other part and she needed to
Page 66
1 get the money together to be able to show that -- or have
2 that for PREL when their contract -- she told me it was
3 ending July 1.
4 Q. So she did indicate that there was some sort of
5 involvement with her PREL contract, her current
6 subcontractor?
7 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
8 Q. That's why she --
9 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
10 Q. And since that time in June of 2001, have you
11 had any further contact with Miss Stocksdale or any
12 follow up on that?
13 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She called me several
14 times afterwards and I told her, you know, that I didn't
15 know anybody who could arrange a loan or we certainly
16 couldn't. Also, along in that time period, our
17 organization thought that it would be nice if we could go
18 over and do training for teachers and parents and
19 providers on Molokai in autism, and she had found out
20 about that and she wanted her technical assistance team
21 to be involved in that, but I was very unclear as to how
22 that would work and so nothing came of that.
23 Q. Okay. And when you say she had maybe inquired
24 several times, how many would be several times?
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I got multiple phone
Page 67
1 calls over several days. I didn't answer all the calls,
2 you know, she just kept calling.
3 Q. And when you say that you weren't certain in
4 terms of how her organization would provide any
5 assistance to you for autism training, is that because
6 technical assistance is actually more targeted towards
7 the actual complexes and the schools rather than any type
8 of therapy servicing, is that the reason?
9 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah. I actually -- I
10 mean I didn't even know about these technical assistance
11 people at that point. And so -- and the way she
12 described it didn't sound like they were involved in
13 actual service provision or --
14 Q. So even though your organization -- I think you
15 said you have 28 percent of your business on the Big
16 Island, you folks have never heard of this targeted
17 technical assistance concept before?
18 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, and I felt really
19 kind of out of the loop after that, so I called providers
20 and I called our various administrators and said have you
21 ever heard of these people, and they hadn't.
22 Q. Okay, thank you very much.
23 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
24 you. Vice-Chair Kokubun followed by Representative Ito.
25 VICE-CHAIR SENATOR KOKUBUN: Thank you,
Page 68
1 Co-Chair Saiki.
2 BY VICE-CHAIR SENATOR KOKUBUN:
3 Q. Miss McLaughlin, when you mentioned other
4 companies, organizations providing the same kind of
5 services that CARE does, you mentioned Alakai Na Keiki
6 and many others, would you consider -- are you familiar
7 with Loveland Academy?
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
9 Q. Would you consider them as a competitor in
10 terms of providing similar services that CARE does?
11 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: They provide primarily
12 day treatment. They do have a BPS program. I suppose in
13 that sense they would be a competitor, but I think
14 something that's important to understand about the whole
15 environment here is that there's so many kids needing
16 services that, you know, we tend not to think that way
17 too much, of people.
18 Q. Okay. We earlier had a Dr. David Drews as a
19 witness before the committee. Are you familiar with
20 Dr. Drews?
21 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
22 Q. And his position at --
23 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
24 Q. -- I guess now Honolulu Family Guidance Center?
25 As part of a report and audit of his activities, there
Page 69
1 was a complaint that was filed regarding specifically how
2 Dr. Drews was authorizing increased services to Loveland
3 during the strike.
4 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, yes. Uh huh.
5 Q. I believe you were a part of that complaint?
6 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: As I recall it, what
7 happened is that BPS programs provide services during
8 intersessions, holidays, summers, and when the strike was
9 looming, parents were talking to us saying will you be
10 providing intersession services, and I guess we thought
11 that we probably would be because it seemed to be very
12 similar to nonstrike times, and then I started getting
13 calls from our BPS people saying we're not getting
14 authorized for the service but they're being sent to
15 Loveland Academy for that time. And so I called and
16 asked what that was happening or what that was about.
17 Q. You also raised the circumstance that Central
18 Pacific University shares the same address, I guess, as
19 Loveland Academy?
20 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
21 Q. Is that -- obviously that's peculiar to you.
22 Did you investigate that any further or draw any
23 conclusions?
24 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I just noted that they
25 shared the same address and I was surprised.
Page 70
1 Q. When this complaint was brought up before
2 Dr. Drews, he, you know, alluded to the fact that this
3 was just a complaint from a competitor and really didn't
4 amount to much substance. What is your sense of that
5 evaluation?
6 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I wasn't complaining
7 that they were sending kids there instead of to us, what
8 I was concerned about was that it appeared that they were
9 taking kids that we already had and putting them over
10 there. And that seemed to me to be a disruption in
11 service and all of that.
12 Q. You mean you were servicing -- you had some
13 clients, some students that you were servicing that
14 during the strike got rereferred to Loveland as opposed
15 to your -- to CARE?
16 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right. But then I was
17 told that was because Loveland had a day treatment
18 program, but I guess -- I mean it was just different than
19 how -- how things normally ran.
20 Q. And was there any resolution either during the
21 strike or immediately thereafter?
22 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Ut uh. Kids went to
23 Loveland.
24 Q. Still continued? And what happened after the
25 strike was over?
Page 71
1 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: They came back for
2 their normal BPS time.
3 Q. So your company experienced a decrease in the
4 number of clients during the strike?
5 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, and I think it
6 probably depends on how you define services. I mean if
7 CAMHD was saying well -- I don't know what they were
8 thinking, I mean, you know, I'm sure there was rationale
9 for that.
10 Q. But nevertheless, the number of students that
11 you were servicing through CARE was reduced during the
12 strike?
13 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. Yes.
14 Q. And the sense is that -- your sense is that the
15 number of students that Loveland Academy was seeing
16 during the strike increased?
17 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It did. I don't know
18 by exactly how much. Things were pretty hectic during
19 that time and I don't know if they were reimbursed or if
20 they did it out of the goodness of their hearts or, you
21 know, exactly what happened there.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
24 you. Representative Ito followed by Senator Buen.
25 REPRESENTATIVE ITO: Mr. Chair, I am
Page 72
1 speechless and I have no questions to ask the witness.
2 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Okay.
3 Thank you, Representative Ito. Senator Buen followed by
4 Representative Kawakami.
5 SENATOR BUEN: Thank you, Co-Chair
6 Saiki. I have no questions.
7 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
8 you. Representative Kawakami followed by Senator Slom.
9 REPRESENTATIVE KAWAKAMI: Just a few
10 questions. Thank you, Chair.
11 BY REPRESENTATIVE KAWAKAMI:
12 Q. Mrs. McLaughlin, were both you and your husband
13 doing private services before forming CARE, am I correct?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We were both in
15 private practice.
16 Q. In private practice. Okay. You were in
17 private practice for how long?
18 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Before forming CARE?
19 I started my private practice at the end of 1991 to '99,
20 so about seven, eight years.
21 Q. Both of you?
22 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: No. Since about 1983.
23 Q. You were earlier, right after then. Okay. You
24 formed CARE in 1999?
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
Page 73
1 Q. Okay. So that's fairly recent.
2 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
3 Q. Okay. But in between you said Hoa Hana was
4 formed?
5 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: In 1997.
6 Q. '97, and so it lasted two years and was
7 dissolved?
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
9 Q. So there was some kind of -- as you kind of
10 mentioned, not trouble, but disagreements, etc., I kind
11 of got that --
12 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Just differences, you
13 know, in how one approaches things.
14 Q. Yeah. So you disagreed on approaches, etc.?
15 Is that it?
16 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Probably to some
17 extent, but I don't think there was anything right or
18 wrong, it's just different people all trying to do a
19 similar job.
20 Q. Okay. So it lasted only two years. What I
21 wanted to know now, you have CARE and you have 100
22 employees, you said?
23 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I think so. I know
24 how many contractors we have. I didn't count my employee
25 number.
Page 74
1 Q. Okay. Well, around that?
2 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
3 Q. What I wanted to ask more was in terms of group
4 therapy.
5 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
6 Q. Okay. Versus one to one.
7 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
8 Q. How much -- let's say how many children you
9 service to begin with?
10 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Over the two years we
11 serviced 5,005.
12 Q. Okay. Would you say that a lot of the time was
13 in group therapy except for those that needed one on one?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, only about two
15 percent of our services were in group therapy.
16 Q. And that was because you said it was difficult
17 to make it happen?
18 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah. There are
19 barriers to forming groups.
20 Q. Uh huh. Okay. I guess that's about all,
21 Chairman, that I have. Thank you very much. Thank you.
22 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
23 you. Senator Slom followed by Representative Leong.
24 SENATOR SLOM: Co-Chair, point of
25 information. As you know, I'm very seldom speechless,
Page 75
1 and I'm just wondering if because my colleagues were
2 speechless, I get 45 minutes of questioning.
3 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Try again.
4 SENATOR SLOM: If you don't try, you
5 don't go. Thank you.
6 BY SENATOR SLOM:
7 Q. Mrs. McLaughlin, I'm a little curious. You
8 were not subpoenaed. You came here on your own free
9 will. We have people running away from this committee.
10 Why did you come?
11 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, I think that the
12 committee is asking good questions and I'm hoping that
13 this would be an opportunity for us to exchange
14 information. You know, I'm anxious to know what the
15 legislators' concerns are and I'd also like people to
16 know what we're doing. And when I say we, I mean there
17 are a lot of other organizations doing exactly the same
18 thing that we're doing out there as well, and if there's
19 problems with what we're doing I want to know it and I
20 also want people to know that -- some of the good things
21 that are happening.
22 Q. How would you characterize the transition from
23 the Department of Health to the Department of Education
24 relating to Felix?
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I think a lot of hard
Page 76
1 work went into it on all sides. Some of it was positive,
2 with careful attention being paid to the needs of
3 children, some of it was very difficult with transitions
4 not necessarily being in the best interests of the kids.
5 Q. Is there an attitudinal change or difference
6 between a DOH -- DOH and DOE as they approach the problem
7 that you're aware of?
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: To some extent, yes.
9 They're -- and it's not -- this shouldn't be generalized
10 to everyone in the DOE because there's differences, you
11 know, from person to person, school to school within the
12 DOE. But there's clearly been a sense that often in the
13 DOE, and again, I guess I want to protect them a little
14 bit, is that they have been the ones working with
15 children and for many years not seeing any progress with
16 these kids. They see them end up institutionalized or in
17 Halawa or something like this. We're seeing that become
18 different. I don't think many of them have had the
19 opportunity yet to have their past experience catch up to
20 the current, so many of those people are fairly negative.
21 I've been told, you know, that these children aren't
22 worth anything, you know, why should we waste time and
23 money and energy on them, they'll never amount to
24 anything, and when I hear that I just know that these
25 people haven't had the opportunity to really see what can
Page 77
1 be done with the children, but that is present, there's
2 the push to save money, the DOE people, most of them are
3 working very hard to save all of us money and I think
4 that's really good. On the other hand, sometimes that
5 cuts across purposes to the child.
6 Q. Almost every witness that we've had has talked
7 about the problem regarding TAs, the shortage of TAs.
8 What's your take on that?
9 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, the job is very
10 difficult. It's very nonrewarding. You're working with
11 children who don't hug you, they don't smile at you, they
12 kick you, bite you, hit you, throw things, it's not
13 pleasant work. The hours are difficult in the sense that
14 you're working evenings, weekends. We have requests for
15 people at 5:30 a.m. to work for one hour, and it becomes
16 very difficult to fill those positions. The pay level
17 isn't high, the requirements for training and supervision
18 are high. Those are some of the obstacles to getting
19 people in. A lot of people come in for a day or two and
20 they say forget it, and we've put lots of time and energy
21 into training and they just can't hack it.
22 Q. A couple of people that have testified before
23 us have indicated or made an allegation basically that
24 some of the parents have been abdicating their
25 responsibilities in favor of TA services. Do you believe
Page 78
1 that's a fair or accurate statement?
2 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: You know, it's
3 interesting because, you know, I supervise providers and
4 often times there's a new provider coming in, that's
5 their first reaction, is how can this person be getting,
6 you know, 30 hours of TA service, where does the
7 parenting come in? Usually within hours of meeting with
8 the family they're yelling for more TA services. I think
9 it's important to understand what's happened,
10 particularly in the autism field. When I first started
11 out in this field, my very first placement was in the
12 backboards of Napa State Hospital working with autistic
13 kids. When I walked in there, okay, I'm a college
14 student finishing up my degree, the first thing I noticed
15 was that there was a row of blood around the wall
16 spattered. Then I looked at the kids and they had knobs
17 on their heads. You know, the movies hadn't even come up
18 with kids that looked like this. There was urine, feces
19 all over the place. This was autism back in 1973. These
20 kids today, if we get them early, we have them
21 mainstreamed by first grade. Now, that takes 30 to 40
22 hours of intensive work during the week. I have parents
23 who have had their noses broken, their ribs broken,
24 they're bruised from these kids, and when these parents
25 are saying I think I need some respite care or I need TA
Page 79
1 help, that's what they're responding to. They're
2 parenting at a level above and beyond what almost any of
3 us would ever ever have encountered. I mean I thought I
4 had it bad when once I was stupid enough to take my two
5 year old twins up to the top floor of Liberty House and
6 they got into something and then they threw a temper
7 tantrum and I carried them under my arms, and every time
8 I walk into Liberty House Ala Moana I remember this,
9 okay, because I really stupidly rode the escalators all
10 the way down. I didn't think of going out the nearest
11 exit and the whole store stopped and watched these kids
12 screaming at me, all right? Minor compared to what these
13 parents go through every single day. We have parents who
14 have never left their house because the last time they
15 did, the kid destroyed the Blockbuster store. This sort
16 of thing goes on constantly. So no, I don't think
17 parents are abdicating their responsibilities. There's
18 about an 80 percent divorce rate with parents of autism
19 children, and they didn't start out bad. Okay, they
20 started out as good as any of us sitting in this room,
21 they should have a 50 percent divorce rate.
22 Q. Final question. I've been given time. Final
23 question. Mrs. McLaughlin, do you feel that this
24 investigative committee in any way is posing a threat to
25 the services of the Felix kids?
Page 80
1 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I hope not. I think
2 these are good questions that are being asked. I'd like
3 to know where all the money is going, too. You know,
4 when I look at the number of kids that we've treated, the
5 number of kids that other agencies have treated and the
6 amount of money that's been spent, you know, we probably
7 spent twelve million over two years and treated 5,000
8 kids. That's half the Felix population. We didn't do
9 all the treatments, some of the kids got some other
10 services from other agencies, but the average kid is
11 probably consuming about 24, $2,500 a year in service
12 money. I'd like to know, you know, where the other 900
13 million dollars went. I think that's a good question and
14 I'm glad that the committee is pursuing that and I trust
15 that the legislature would pursue that for anybody who's
16 getting a billion dollars, whether it's us or the
17 construction industry or, you know, whoever gets this.
18 These are good questions.
19 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Co-Chair.
20 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
21 you. Representative Leong followed by Senator Matsuura.
22 REPRESENTATIVE LEONG: Thank you, Chair
23 Saiki.
24 BY REPRESENTATIVE LEONG:
25 Q. Some of my questions have already been
Page 81
1 answered, but I've got them so I'll just go over them
2 briefly. I just wanted to know about the ages of these
3 students that you have that you're working with, the
4 number of the students -- of the children involved, their
5 ages and the number involved, and then you mentioned
6 autism, so you do have several autistic children that
7 whom you're working with. And also, in the days of the
8 week, how -- what time element do you work with these
9 children? Is it seven days a week, so in that order, if
10 you could just briefly state it to clarify it?
11 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: The ages, we have a
12 zero to three contract clause also, so we see kids from
13 infancy to three. The rest of the kids are ages three
14 through 20. The average age is around eleven to twelve.
15 The gender mix is about 70, 75 percent male, 20, 25
16 percent female. The number of autistic kids, we've seen
17 about 200 kids, so I think about half the autism
18 population.
19 Q. And in terms of duration of time --
20 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, yes. During the
21 day, our services start very early. First of all, our
22 therapists are on call seven days a week, 24 hours a day.
23 If they leave the island or if they go out to a great
24 dinner with drinks, they've got to get coverage for
25 themselves, and we have to know who that coverage is, so
Page 82
1 once you're a provider, that's it. Your time is ours and
2 the kids'. And the services again are from very early in
3 the morning till sometimes as late as midnight and calls
4 in between.
5 Q. And is that for like the whole week, like seven
6 days a week?
7 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Seven days a week, 52
8 weeks a year.
9 Q. Okay. And my last question is earlier you
10 stated in terms of what your goals were in forming this
11 organization. You said that you wanted to provide a
12 bigger pool for -- for the population and also, you want
13 to learn to assess properly and be able to document it.
14 Are you talking about when you have a case that everybody
15 uniformly assess the patient or assess the child, is this
16 really -- it seems like this could be a problem because
17 not everybody, you know, presents documents. Not
18 everybody seems to do it uniformly. Is this today a
19 standard problem? Is that what you mean by to document
20 and assess?
21 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I think I was
22 referring --
23 Q. You know, like teachers have to do report
24 cards.
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
Page 83
1 Q. So you --
2 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I think what I was
3 referring to earlier was talking about initial
4 assessments, but in terms of documentation of say
5 treatment outcomes, I think that's really important. We
6 have a system where we require our providers to collect --
7 using specific tools for collecting the data, treatment
8 outcome measures, which we require every three months.
9 Now, within that, there are some types of diagnoses
10 particularly in the autism spectrum where we collect
11 information daily and then that's compiled weekly and
12 then monthly, and then eventually quarterly. All of our
13 services are recorded on line. We don't do anything
14 paper. So all services are recorded in real time on line
15 including our treatment outcomes, and so if we want to
16 know how our PD autism kids are doing, I can quickly pull
17 that report and it will tell me, you know, you've treated
18 this many kids with this type of treatment outcome using
19 this particular type of instrument and we have chosen
20 different instruments that are nationally recognized as
21 instruments appropriate for assessing progress, and we --
22 some of those instruments are also the same instruments
23 that CAMHD has chosen for treatment outcome measurements
24 and we use all the ones that they require as well.
25 Q. So therefore, if a child leaves you, these
Page 84
1 388uments or this information could be transferred to the
2 child wherever he's going or gone?
3 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, yes.
4 Q. Thank you very much.
5 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It's also available on
6 line to people, say in CAMHD or the DOE who would be
7 authorized to see that.
8 Q. Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.
9 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
10 you. Senator Matsuura followed by Representative
11 Marumoto.
12 REPRESENTATIVE MATSUURA: Thank you,
13 Co-Chair.
14 BY REPRESENTATIVE MATSUURA:
15 Q. You know, you always chuckle saying, you know,
16 that you're -- or you're a for profit company not making
17 too much profit, but I guess we're looking at your staff.
18 You've got 100 employees, 97. Actually you are running
19 quite a sizable -- I mean with 100 employees, 97, your
20 payroll and your -- for your staff is well over a million
21 dollars a month. And basically what I'm trying to get
22 at, because we've been reviewing a lot of different
23 agencies that have been coming up, if actually you were
24 looking at -- from a business standpoint, the way our
25 system is set up, you could highly profit from the system
Page 85
1 if you wanted to. If you did not have like what you
2 said, did not have the best interest of the child in
3 mind, you could formulate groups, you could formulate
4 double up, triple up, not really care about what's good
5 for the child but yet put them in situations where you
6 can profit from them.
7 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't think so. I
8 think it would be difficult to do that. Either that or I
9 just haven't figured it out.
10 Q. Maybe because you're more of a clinician than
11 you are a business person.
12 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah. If anybody
13 wants to suggest a business consultant. I think that the
14 way it is set up, there's a lot of auditing that occurs.
15 Every service that is provided is audited. I mean every
16 hour of service is audited. I mean we're down to arguing
17 about words like should we include the world observe in a
18 therapy session. I mean that's fairly intense auditing,
19 I think, and I think some of the natural barriers go
20 against setting up ways to profit, like say getting 20
21 kids in a group or something like that. That's not
22 possible to happen.
23 Q. Does CARE have an exclusivity like how Loveland
24 has exclusivity on certain children? Apparently there's
25 some kind of a gray book out there that everybody has to
Page 86
1 use, and in our last testimony, one of the testifiers
2 said that for certain types of children Loveland has the
3 exclusivity, they couldn't call anybody else but
4 Loveland.
5 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I'm not aware of that.
6 Q. So actually, if you really look at -- the
7 testimony of Dr. LeMahieu and certain other things we
8 looked at are Loveland investigative tapes, you could see
9 if it was manipulated there could be -- there's quite a
10 considerable amount of profit that could be billed, even
11 providing services, billing for services that were not
12 even provided?
13 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, that would be
14 difficult to do, I think, because every parent is sent by
15 the State a list of the services that were billed. Just
16 like if you have HMSA, you know, you get a sheet saying
17 your doctor billed us for this many services on these
18 dates at this amount. Parents get the same thing from
19 the State. And so a parent can look at that and go wait
20 a minute, this didn't happen, and I've had a couple of
21 calls from parents saying did this happen and then I
22 would sit down with them and we'd go over their calendar
23 and ours, and sure enough it did, and they forgot that
24 they had their kid at auntie's house that day, and that's
25 where the kid was seen, you know, that sort of thing. So
Page 87
1 I think that, you know, the State has done a good job of
2 building some safeguards in on that kind of stuff.
3 Q. Just one more question. Let me back up to what
4 my previous -- what your answer was. You said you didn't
5 know about this gray book where the care coordinators had
6 in terms of contracting out services?
7 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No. That's the first
8 I'm hearing about that. I've heard about individual
9 providers being blacklisted by people because maybe they
10 said something in a report that someone didn't like, but
11 that's all I've heard.
12 Q. So in other words, you heard of providers being
13 blackballed because of their criticism, but yet you
14 didn't hear about where certain providers were actually
15 offered exclusivity in their manuals?
16 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
17 Q. Okay, thank you.
18 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
19 you. Representative Marumoto followed by Senator
20 Sakamoto.
21 REPRESENTATIVE MARUMOTO: Thank you,
22 Mr. Chairman.
23 BY REPRESENTATIVE MARUMOTO:
24 Q. Is it Dr. McLaughlin?
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
Page 88
1 Q. You were talking about feeling a little bit out
2 of the loop when you heard about this targeted technical
3 assistance, but you phoned around to find out more about
4 it. When you did, did you hear anything about Na Laukoa
5 at the time? I'm wondering whether in your personal
6 professional estimation, whether you felt that this
7 entity was qualified to undertake this contract.
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I didn't -- I wasn't
9 even thinking or looking at that. I just was feeling out
10 of the loop like I am now about the gray book. I'm
11 learning all kinds of things, and I just thought maybe
12 that was something I should have known about or, you
13 know, taken advantage of and so I just had asked about
14 that. Nobody said anything about qualifications.
15 Q. I guess we've been looking at this entity a
16 little closely, but do you think that the leader of this
17 group is qualified to provide targeted technical
18 assistance, or the staff?
19 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah. Again, I didn't
20 look into -- for qualifications, I was just trying to
21 sort through the information.
22 Q. Okay. Yet this person is a colleague and a
23 friend?
24 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, I met her three
25 times and talked with her and had cordial conversations
Page 89
1 with her.
2 Q. Okay. But you're not familiar with her
3 background at all?
4 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, I know that she --
5 she told me that she had started college to work on
6 getting the education needed for this. She told me that
7 she had hired people who had degrees and licenses. She
8 told me that she had I guess run a modeling agency or
9 maybe still does.
10 Q. I see. But you did mention that you felt that
11 Mrs. Stocksdale, is that her name, received this contract
12 by virtue of her close relationship with the
13 superintendent?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I -- she told me she
15 had the close relationship and that she had the contract.
16 Q. Thank you very much.
17 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
18 you. Senator Sakamoto followed by Co-Chair Hanabusa.
19 SENATOR SAKAMOTO: Thank you, Chair.
20 BY SENATOR SAKAMOTO:
21 Q. I guess kind of following up on Senator
22 Matsuura's question on the gray book or whatever he
23 called it, my recollection is Loveland had the
24 opportunity or contract to provide day treatment
25 services, and my understanding from other testifiers was
Page 90
1 that they were the only one within this geographic area
2 with those particular day treatment services, so I think
3 that's what he was referring to.
4 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, okay.
5 Q. So who has what types of fee for service
6 opportunities, and just as you had behavioral BPS,
7 whatever, they had that as well.
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
9 Q. But for autism, the type that Loveland had, I
10 guess our understanding was they were the only provider
11 in this geographic area.
12 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I believe that's
13 right. Yes, yes, and there would be lists then of people
14 who provide what types of services.
15 Q. Okay. So that whatever you call it, I believe,
16 so it's who's eligible to whatever co-service, who they
17 can be referred to?
18 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah. Okay.
19 Q. Related to the outcomes, I'm glad we're not in
20 1973, and it's sad to hear what you're sharing about what
21 occurred then. Where we're at now, how much of the
22 treatments, whether it's autism or other types of
23 disabilities are evidence based as opposed to trial and
24 error?
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: In the last few years
Page 91
1 we've had an explosion of evidence, the ability to be
2 evidence based. Research in the behaviorial sciences
3 takes a long time because if you're not giving a pill to
4 a kid, it may take weeks, months, years to actually see
5 the outcome and we're finally benefiting from that. So I
6 believe that for the practices that we and other agencies
7 are employing, it is evidence based. There are good
8 studies, CAMHD has been collecting those studies, we all
9 are working hard to stay up to, you know, speed with the
10 best practices and then we make sure that our providers
11 are also aware of those and we supervise to make sure
12 they're employing those practices.
13 Q. At the current time or in the recent past, has --
14 have those treatment guidelines or best practices been
15 something that's dictated to you saying CARE, here are
16 the best practices that the Department of Health, the
17 Department of Education recommends, or is that something
18 that you and your independent contractors or
19 subcontractors determine based on their experience in
20 employing their best practices?
21 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: There's a body of
22 research literature, and CAMHD has certainly made that
23 available to us, have encouraged us to attend conferences
24 on this and have encouraged us very strongly to adhere to
25 effective practices, and DOE is also taking that
Page 92
1 approach. I have felt that it's a collaborative effort
2 as well. I can E-mail people at CAMHD and say are you
3 aware of this and I'll get E-mails back saying we just
4 heard this from NIH, check this out, you know, so there's
5 a real effort to stay on that cutting edge of what will
6 be most effective.
7 Q. So at the present time, even though there's a
8 this transition where some providers' employees may now
9 become Department of Education employees, there's still a
10 professionalism and a collegial atmosphere as opposed to
11 a competitive atmosphere between the DOE and the
12 providers?
13 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: There's variability in
14 that. Some providers -- DOE has stolen some of our best
15 providers, what can I say? And that's good. I think
16 some providers are threatened by this as they see their
17 accounts drop and some of them have acted professionally,
18 some may not have, and we all work hard to make sure that
19 professionality is maintained.
20 Q. Okay. I appreciate your candid answers. One
21 more question. Related to the technical assistance from
22 whatever you know of it now, even though you may not have
23 known of it before, had you known of an opportunity to
24 provide the technical assistance, would CARE have been an
25 entity that would have said we can provide that service
Page 93
1 and here's our proposal?
2 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Probably if it had
3 been a public bid. We, along with a number of agencies,
4 would have bid on it.
5 Q. Based on what you know, how many other agencies
6 would have said and we'd also like to submit our
7 proposal?
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Probably half a dozen
9 to a dozen.
10 Q. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chair.
11 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
12 you. Co-Chair Hanabusa.
13 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you.
14 BY CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA:
15 Q. Mrs. McLaughlin, something that you said is
16 troubling, and that's during the strike, and you said
17 that certain of your clients were routed to Loveland.
18 It's my understanding that part of the biopsychosocial
19 therapy is the continuity, so wouldn't an action such as
20 that affect the children's development?
21 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
22 Q. So your TAs did not follow them to Loveland?
23 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Our biopsychosocial
24 staff did not. I cannot speak to whether or not an
25 individual TA might have gone.
Page 94
1 Q. Did you find that when the children were, as
2 you said, quote unquote, returned at the end of the
3 strike period, that you had additional work to do with
4 them?
5 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: You know, I'd have to
6 follow up on that.
7 Q. I mean the committee's concern has always been
8 the children.
9 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
10 Q. And something like that, you see a major
11 disruption in a group that should not have suffered that.
12 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
13 Q. And I will represent to you that no one -- when
14 we were going through this with Loveland, no one ever
15 mentioned that something like this had happened and we
16 were aware of your complaint that you had filed.
17 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Uh huh.
18 Q. The other issue is when Dr. Kravetz was here
19 and he testified for Alakai Na Keiki, he said that he's
20 suffering a decrease in the number of clients. Are you
21 experiencing the same thing?
22 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. Someplace here I
23 actually have that.
24 Q. You don't have to give me an exact figure. It
25 was like 1,200 to 500, if I recall.
Page 95
1 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah. We were
2 averaging -- oh, 16, 1,700 a month before that and then
3 it's somewhere between eight and 900 now.
4 Q. Okay. The other thing that I recall
5 Dr. Kravetz saying is that he put in a bid to become a
6 day treatment center like Loveland and he was unable to
7 get that. Are you familiar with that bid process?
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, I am.
9 Q. So did you put in to be a day treatment center
10 as well?
11 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We did, and we had an
12 identified classroom and agreements ready to go.
13 Q. And you were not awarded that contract as well?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No. No.
15 Q. So would this be in competition to -- with
16 Loveland?
17 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It probably was. I
18 mean I'm sure there are a lot of people who bid on that.
19 Q. Because the impression we've been left with is
20 that Loveland is the only game in town because they're
21 the only ones who can provide this, and then with
22 Dr. Kravetz's testimony, we became aware of a bid and
23 CAMHD not awarding it, so it's good to know that you're
24 also in that category. You mentioned that there were
25 three occasions when you met or had met Kaniu Stocksdale.
Page 96
1 Was the June 2001 occasion like the third or the first of
2 the three occasions?
3 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: The third.
4 Q. The third? So when had you known her before
5 that?
6 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I think I met her
7 first actually in May and that I think came out of -- I
8 think I met her sort of in passing at a provider meeting
9 and a group of us then had lunch and then I later met her
10 one other time.
11 Q. Is that May of this year or May of last year?
12 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: This year.
13 Q. This year? And another time before the June
14 meeting?
15 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah. So I think I
16 probably met her a couple times in May and then once in
17 June.
18 Q. You know, Mrs. McLaughlin, in May did Miss
19 Stocksdale talk about her relationship with the
20 superintendent as well then?
21 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She talked extensively
22 about him and I was sort of -- I was curious at that
23 point.
24 Q. And that was in May?
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
Page 97
1 Q. So this discussion about her intimate
2 relationship with the superintendent, did that come out
3 in May or did that come out in your June conversation?
4 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: June.
5 Q. In the June conversation? Are you familiar
6 with the entity called PREL?
7 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I've heard of it.
8 Actually, I hadn't heard about it till she told me about
9 them.
10 Q. And how did she explain the relationship
11 between Na Laukoa and PREL?
12 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She said that the
13 monies on the technical assistance contract had been
14 passed through PREL.
15 Q. Did she give a reason why it was passed through
16 PREL?
17 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't recall.
18 Q. From your meetings with Ms. Stocksdale, if it
19 ever came up, did you get a sense that she was familiar
20 with the provisions of the IDEA?
21 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I didn't go into much
22 detail on that with her.
23 Q. Did Miss Stocksdale give you any indication
24 that the contract she was receiving through PREL was
25 primarily because of her relationship with Dr. LeMahieu
Page 98
1 and he had arranged it or give you a sense that he had
2 arranged it?
3 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That was my
4 understanding.
5 Q. Thank you very much, Co-Chair Saiki.
6 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
7 you. I just have a couple of questions.
8 BY CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
9 Q. In your discussions with Miss Stocksdale in May
10 and June 2001, did Miss Stocksdale ever mention a person
11 by the name of Ivor Groves?
12 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
13 Q. What was the context of that?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: His name sort of
15 appeared several times. I'm trying to remember
16 specifics. I'm not sure.
17 Q. Well, do you generally recall what the context
18 of that conversation was?
19 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I think it would be
20 things like he'd say well, I told Ivor Groves this or I
21 asked him that or he feels this or that. She led me to
22 believe that she had extensive contact with him.
23 Q. Was there any -- was his name used in reference
24 with the contract that was awarded to Na Laukoa?
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't recall that
Page 99
1 being a decision making capacity. It might have been in
2 things more like well, he thinks that this should be done
3 or that should be done.
4 Q. But you don't remember exactly what --
5 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
6 Q. Did Miss Stocksdale ever mention the name of
7 Jeff Portnoy?
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I believe she may
9 have. Yeah.
10 Q. Do you recall what the context was?
11 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That may have been in
12 the context of discussing the czar issue with LeMahieu.
13 Q. Did she say that Mr. Portnoy had offered the
14 position to Dr. LeMahieu?
15 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: The conversation was
16 involved around that and I don't remember precisely her
17 words on that.
18 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.
19 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
20 Members, at this point we'll take follow up questions,
21 first by Special Counsel.
22 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Just a few,
23 Mr. Chair.
24 BY SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA:
25 Q. Mrs. McLaughlin, was it your understanding that --
Page 100
1 when you mentioned earlier when Chair Hanabusa was
2 questioning you about going through PREL, was it your
3 understanding that PREL was being used sort of as a
4 conduit through which Na Laukoa would get the work to do
5 whatever they were doing for the special education
6 students?
7 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
8 Q. And did she mention that the superintendent had
9 attempted to let this contract to Na Laukoa directly but
10 ran into such opposition from his administration people
11 that he had to therefore use PREL as that conduit?
12 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't -- she told me
13 that he'd had a lot of opposition and I guess I was just
14 trying to understand who all the different players were,
15 so I don't recall that that connection was made.
16 Q. All right. She did mention opposition though?
17 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, yes.
18 Q. And she did mention opposition as to Na Laukoa
19 and herself?
20 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
21 Q. And did she mention using Federal funds,
22 Federal impact funds to fund this contract so as to not
23 come under the purview of the legislature? Do you recall
24 her saying anything of that type?
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
Page 101
1 Q. All right. Thank you, ma'am. No further
2 questions.
3 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
4 you. Members, any follow up questions? Senator Slom?
5 BY SENATOR SLOM:
6 Q. Thank you, Co-Chair. Just one follow up
7 question, Ms. McLaughlin. In answer to a question posed
8 by Senator Matsuura, you said that you were aware of
9 blacklisting of providers. My question is was this
10 alleged blacklisting because of either objections that
11 they may have raised about various contracts or in trying
12 to provide information to this committee or to other
13 sources or anything else?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't think the --
15 as I -- or what I've been told the blacklisting was for
16 was some of it was because somebody maybe didn't turn in
17 a monthly summary and they weren't up on their paperwork.
18 Okay. So that would be one reason. Another reason might
19 be fairly vague, and I'm still trying to track it down,
20 apparently they just didn't have a good relationship with
21 someone in the system. And then a third reason would be
22 that if somebody didn't like a report that somebody had
23 been made, and we have to be extremely careful when we
24 make these assessments that we don't name -- for example,
25 we can't say this child needs a therapeutic aide. We can
Page 102
1 say this child needs intensive services throughout
2 certain hours of the day and then it's up to the IEP team
3 to say that. I've had people blacklisted because they
4 suggested that the team might want to consult with
5 another team member about a treatment plan. Some of our
6 people that have been blacklisted have been people who
7 have had to testify in due process hearings or in other
8 court cases. These sorts of things have happened.
9 Q. Have you heard at any time from anyone the
10 threat of retribution for any provider or individual who
11 testified before this committee or to any agency of the
12 State government?
13 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, I have not had it
14 said, you know, or heard it said don't testify to this
15 committee.
16 Q. Okay, thank you.
17 SENATOR SLOM: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
18 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
19 you. Members, any other follow up questions?
20 REPRESENTATIVE ITO: Yes, Co-Chair.
21 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
22 Representative Ito.
23 REPRESENTATIVE ITO: Thank you very
24 much.
25 BY REPRESENTATIVE ITO:
Page 103
1 Q. You know, talking to Mrs. Stocksdale, did she
2 ever use the term receivership? I know you mentioned she
3 used the word czar.
4 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. I think the --
5 what she said is if it goes into receivership then he
6 would -- Dr. LeMahieu would become the czar.
7 Q. Become the czar?
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
9 Q. Did she mention anything about the Board of
10 Education? You know, the oversight role and --
11 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She did, and I just
12 remember her talking about that. I don't remember
13 precisely the content of it.
14 Q. Maybe was it -- I mean what was the tone?
15 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I think the tone was
16 that she didn't know how supportive they were of
17 Dr. LeMahieu, hoped they would be, wanted me to talk to
18 people and get them to be supportive of him.
19 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.
20 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
21 REPRESENTATIVE ITO: Thank you,
22 Mr. Chair.
23 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
24 you. Members, any other follow ups? Co-Chair Hanabusa.
25 BY CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA:
Page 104
1 Q. Yes. This bid issue troubles me. What did you
2 submit the bid to to become a day treatment center?
3 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: CAMHD.
4 Q. It was CAMHD. Do you know who made the
5 decisions on the bid itself?
6 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
7 Q. It would be something internal to CAMHD?
8 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah. I think they
9 had a panel of people who reviewed it and they have a way
10 of rank ordering it and there's a whole list of criteria
11 that they use to order it and I thought that's how the
12 decisions are made.
13 Q. But you have no idea who's on that panel?
14 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Ut uh. Maybe they
15 told us, but I certainly don't remember.
16 Q. Well, does Dr. Drews' name sound familiar? Do
17 you know if he was on that panel?
18 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't think he was.
19 I don't know. He might have been, but I don't recall.
20 Q. Okay. Thank you. That was my follow up.
21 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
22 you. Members, any other follow up questions? If not,
23 Mr. and Mrs. McLaughlin, thank you very much for your
24 testimony today.
25 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Thank you.
Page 105
1 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Go for
2 awhile, then break for lunch.
3 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Okay.
4 Members, our next two witnesses are Sharon Nobriga and
5 Vicky Followell.
6 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Oh,
7 Co-Chairs, during the break, Mrs. McLaughlin gave me some
8 materials that she provided from their organization. I
9 informed her that we would give it to the committee
10 members and decide what should be done with it. Is there
11 an affidavit with any kind of sworn statement with it?
12 MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It's just the -- and
13 there's also the subpoena. Shall we just leave them
14 there?
15 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: All right.
16 Yes, just leave them there. Thank you.
17 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
18 Members, we'll administer the oath at this time.
19 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: First of
20 all, Ms. Sharon Nobriga, do you solemnly swear or affirm
21 that the testimony you're about to give will be the
22 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
23 MS. NOBRIGA: Yes.
24 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you.
25 And is it Followell?
Page 106
1 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
2 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Okay. Miss
3 Vicky Followell, do you solemnly swear or affirm that the
4 testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the
5 whole truth and nothing but the truth?
6 MS. FOLLOWELL: Yes.
7 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you
8 very much. Members, we'll be following the usual
9 process, so we'll begin with Mr. Kawashima.
10 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Thank you,
11 Madam Chair.
12 E X A M I N A T I O N
13 BY SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA:
14 Q. Let's start with stating your name and business
15 address, please, Ms. Followell.
16 MS. FOLLOWELL: Vicky Followell. PO --
17 I don't know our street address but I have a PO Box. PO
18 Box 700310, Kapolei, Hawaii 96709.
19 Q. Thank you. Ms. Nobriga?
20 MS. NOBRIGA: Sharon Rose Nobriga.
21 Same address as Vicky Followell stated.
22 Q. All right. And my understanding is that you
23 are co-executive directors of Hawaii Families As Allies,
24 acronym HFAA, is that correct?
25 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
Page 107
1 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
2 Q. All right. Now, let me first go back a little
3 bit into your history, educational history.
4 Ms. Followell, can you recall for us your educational
5 background, please?
6 MS. FOLLOWELL: High school graduate of
7 St. Francis High School.
8 Q. Okay. Have you pursued any other level of
9 education beyond that?
10 MS. FOLLOWELL: Yes, I have.
11 Q. What level?
12 MS. FOLLOWELL: Currently I'm at the
13 University of Phoenix pursuing a human services degree in --
14 pursuing a human services degree currently.
15 Q. Does the University of -- University of Phoenix
16 provide accredited degrees?
17 MS. FOLLOWELL: Yes, they do.
18 Q. And this human services degree, is it like a
19 Bachelors or Masters or what?
20 MS. FOLLOWELL: It's actually a
21 Bachelors.
22 Q. A Bachelor of Science?
23 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
24 Q. And how far along are you in the process,
25 ma'am?
Page 108
1 MS. FOLLOWELL: It's actually a two
2 year degree. It's taken me a little bit longer but I'll
3 get there so --
4 Q. All right.
5 MS. FOLLOWELL: So I'm actually slated
6 to graduate in December of '93.
7 Q. Ms. Followell, if you might for us, for the
8 people who are recording this, push your microphone a
9 little bit away from you. I have the same problem.
10 Thank you. It's reverberating.
11 MS. FOLLOWELL: Sorry.
12 Q. All right. No, that's okay. How about you,
13 Ms. Nobriga, was is your educational background?
14 MS. NOBRIGA: High school diploma,
15 graduated from James Campbell High School. I'm currently
16 at the University of Phoenix and I -- this is my second
17 year and I'm going after a Bachelors degree in either
18 business management or human services, I haven't quite
19 made up my mind at this time.
20 Q. I see. When you say your second year, am I to
21 understand that you're doing this, pursuing this degree
22 part-time?
23 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
24 Q. In the evenings?
25 MS. NOBRIGA: In the evenings.
Page 109
1 Q. Same with you, Ms. Followell?
2 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
3 Q. And how about your education -- excuse me, your
4 employment background, Miss Followell? Can you tell us
5 what employment you've had prior to becoming co-executive
6 director of HFAA?
7 MS. FOLLOWELL: All right. I can go
8 back to being a nurse's assistant with what was back then
9 in 1977, the nurse's assistant for Parent and Child
10 Center, which is now called PACT. Also, as parent
11 involvement, so I worked for the Parent and Child Center
12 for ten years. After that was hired by Child and Family
13 Services to work with pregnant and parenting teens out in
14 the Waianae coast, and after that worked for KSB,
15 Kamehameha Schools, as a home visitor for the zero to
16 three population out in Waianae. Then hired by Waianae
17 Coast Community Mental Health Center, which is now called
18 Hale Na'aupono, for ten years as case manager, also the
19 director, program director for their adolescent day
20 treatment program, and then hired by Hawaii Families As
21 Allies and that's where I'm currently at.
22 Q. So when were you hired by Hawaii Families As
23 Allies?
24 MS. FOLLOWELL: June of '96.
25 Q. All right. And you have worked continuously
Page 110
1 there up to now?
2 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
3 Q. Were you hired initially as an executive
4 director?
5 MS. FOLLOWELL: No, I wasn't.
6 Q. What were you hired initially as?
7 MS. FOLLOWELL: It was working as -- I
8 would say community development, but basically working on
9 curriculums.
10 Q. I see. When did you become co-executive
11 director?
12 MS. FOLLOWELL: December of 1998.
13 Q. Two years ago?
14 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
15 Q. One year ago. How is it that you have
16 co-executive directors there, ma'am? If you can answer
17 that. If you can't, I can always ask Mrs. Nobriga.
18 MS. FOLLOWELL: Okay. Prior to the
19 previous co-executive director, there was one
20 co-executive director, and Sharon and I thought about it,
21 you know, why don't we go for it separately. And then we
22 started talking and saying, you know, why don't we
23 present a proposal to our board and see how we could do
24 this together, and the reason we thought about that was
25 that I had certain skills that I could utilize in moving
Page 111
1 this Statewide, this family organization forward, and she
2 had certain skills that she, you know, that we could come
3 together, put it together and present it to our board to
4 see if this could be done, basically we compromised our
5 skills. We couldn't do it alone, and just thought this
6 would be an opportunity for us to do it together.
7 Q. All right. Thank you.
8 MS. FOLLOWELL: That's basically how it
9 started.
10 Q. And who was executive director before that,
11 before you took it on jointly?
12 MS. FOLLOWELL: Deborah Tothdennis.
13 Q. And did that person leave that position or that
14 job?
15 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
16 Q. No longer with the organization?
17 MS. FOLLOWELL: No.
18 Q. All right. Ms. Nobriga, were you -- can you
19 recall for us your employment background, please?
20 MS. NOBRIGA: I started back in 1985
21 with Child and Family Service as their Outreach counselor
22 for one of their programs at the Hale Lokahi Nanakuli
23 site area, and I was in that position for about two
24 years, and in 1988 I was hired as one of the case
25 managers out at the Waianae Mental Health Children's
Page 112
1 team, now known as Hale Na'aupono. I spent about ten
2 years there in various positions, and my first position
3 was a case manager with the children's team. My second
4 position there was to run a prevention program for high
5 risk children out on the Waianae coast. These are kids
6 that haven't -- weren't identified as having mental
7 health needs, but were at risk of, and it was primarily
8 provided out at the school level and in the community.
9 And after that program ended, I then moved into a
10 supervisory position and I supervised all the case
11 managers and therapeutic aides out at that site.
12 Q. For Child and Family Services?
13 MS. NOBRIGA: No. This is for Waianae
14 Mental Health.
15 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay.
16 MS. NOBRIGA: I left Waianae Mental
17 Health in June of 1996 to take on a position with Hawaii
18 Families As Allies. That position was to be the
19 community developer in working with a grant project that
20 was called Ohana, and it was primarily to help the
21 Leeward Community Children's Council and also the Waianae
22 Community Children's Council in developing -- at that
23 time they were just forming and the Ohana grant was
24 providing a lot of technical assistance and support to
25 those two CCCs.
Page 113
1 Q. Is that the Ohana Project?
2 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
3 Q. That's a separate organization now?
4 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct. We were
5 subcontracted, Hawaii Families As Allies was
6 subcontracted by Hawaii Ohana.
7 Q. I see.
8 MS. NOBRIGA: And so -- and then in
9 '99, like Vicky had said, we decided, you know, after the
10 former executive director left the position, it kind of
11 left the statewide family organization in a real sticky
12 situation in possibly not sustaining, and so we decided
13 to go as a partnership in moving the organization forward
14 and looking at ways of sustaining its efforts.
15 Q. I see. So you've been co-executive directors
16 for about a year now?
17 MS. NOBRIGA: No. Actually we've been
18 since -- actually January 1, 2000.
19 Q. Oh, I see.
20 MS. NOBRIGA: What year is this? 2001.
21 I'm sorry. January 1, '99.
22 Q. Sure. '99.
23 MS. NOBRIGA: Yes.
24 Q. It's almost three years then.
25 MS. NOBRIGA: Yes.
Page 114
1 Q. Okay. All right. Now, you mentioned the board
2 of directors. Is HFAA a nonprofit --
3 MS. NOBRIGA: Yes, it is.
4 Q. And its board of directors are made up of
5 outside people?
6 MS. NOBRIGA: Yes, it is. It's made up
7 of at least 51 percent of parent family members. Our
8 target population is families who have children with
9 serious emotional behavioral challenges. That's our
10 target population, so the 51 percent are those parents.
11 Q. And the rest are whom, what type of people?
12 MS. NOBRIGA: We have professional
13 people such as a vice president at a bank. We also have
14 an attorney, so people of various professions.
15 Q. I see. And these board members, whether or not
16 they be parents, they're not compensated for their time,
17 are they?
18 MS. NOBRIGA: No, they're not.
19 Q. It's all voluntary?
20 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
21 Q. So will you tell us what HFAA does in terms of
22 what services you provide to which clientele?
23 MS. NOBRIGA: Our -- okay. The mission
24 of Hawaii Families As Allies is to provide supports to
25 families who have children and youth with serious
Page 115
1 emotional behavioral challenges. The type of supports
2 that we do provide is technical assistance. We provide
3 informational workshops, we also do some systems
4 advocacy.
5 Q. What kind of advocacy?
6 MS. NOBRIGA: Systems advocacy, meaning --
7 our practice has been one of a collaborative forming
8 partnership practice, and so we as a family organization
9 strive to sit at the table with these decision makers,
10 and help to have a family voice there in trying to
11 reshape the system. Hawaii Families As Allies is a
12 chapter of a national federation, organization which is
13 called the Federation of Families for Children's Mental
14 Health. So we've been around since 1986. But we haven't
15 been funded for all those years, it's only since around
16 1992, '93 that we have been funded to do some work. But
17 primarily, we -- because we are a chapter under the
18 federation, we are -- one could say that we are one of
19 the voices of the families who have kids with mental
20 health needs.
21 Q. By the way, Ms. Followell, feel free if you
22 want to also assist in answering. What is your yearly
23 budget now?
24 MS. NOBRIGA: We have --
25 Q. Just about.
Page 116
1 MS. NOBRIGA: Okay, we have -- we have
2 two grants. One is a grant from the Federal SAMHA, the
3 Substance Abuse Mental Health Association grant, and
4 that's for about 60,000 a year, and that's to provide an
5 ongoing statewide family networking and it's working with
6 the families providing the informational workshops, the
7 technical assistance and sitting at the table, and you
8 know, participating in the design, planning and
9 implementation of a service system. The other contract
10 we have is through the Department of Health, the child
11 adolescent mental health division, and that contract is
12 about $725,000 a year.
13 Q. Has your total budget, about 785, 800,000 --
14 MS. NOBRIGA: Yeah.
15 Q. -- been steady at that level for the past say
16 going back several years?
17 MS. NOBRIGA: We've entered into a
18 third year contract with the child adolescent mental
19 health division and it's -- this is the second year we
20 are running off of the 725,000. The first year was 325.
21 Q. But 725 though, that's for one year, right?
22 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
23 Q. So are you saying that initially the funding
24 had been at the $300,000 level?
25 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
Page 117
1 Q. Has moved up to over 700,000 a year?
2 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
3 Q. And what -- to what do you attribute that
4 increase?
5 MS. NOBRIGA: When we first -- when we
6 first was awarded the contract, the staffing was less,
7 the support, you know, to carry out the activities were
8 less. For instance, our staffing, we had hired eight or
9 nine parent partners, that's our staff people, and they
10 were only working 25 hours a week and they were salary
11 employees, and we had set an hourly rate but paid them at
12 a salary and provided them with benefits. Within -- for
13 the second year contract, it was modified and to where
14 there was a request to increase the service array and to
15 increase the number of staffing to provide that service.
16 With the original amount of staffing, this is statewide,
17 so we had a parent -- one parent partner for Kauai, to
18 service the whole island of Kauai at only working 25
19 hours a week. The Big Island, we had three, one in Ka'u,
20 Hilo and Kona, and also working at 25 hours, one from
21 Molokai, one for Lanai, and one for Oahu. And so it was
22 difficult to really carry out and really make an impact,
23 you know, with a limited amount of staffing, so it was to
24 increase the number of staffing and to increase the
25 amount of activities that we did provide.
Page 118
1 Q. How many employees do you have now then?
2 MS. NOBRIGA: Right now we currently
3 have --
4 MS. FOLLOWELL: 21.
5 MS. NOBRIGA: -- 21.
6 Q. Are these full-time employees?
7 MS. NOBRIGA: Some are full-time, some
8 are part-time.
9 Q. Are any of them paid hourly?
10 MS. NOBRIGA: There's an hourly rate,
11 but they're on salary so they work -- the full-time
12 employees work the 40 hours, the part-time employees work
13 their 25 hours.
14 Q. I see.
15 MS. NOBRIGA: That's the hours.
16 Q. You don't have an hourly rate then?
17 MS. NOBRIGA: No.
18 Q. They're all paid a salary?
19 MS. NOBRIGA: Right. It's not like if
20 they work ten hours that's all they get. They are set up
21 to work 25 hours and that's what they give us.
22 Q. Why do you use the 25 hour amount rather than
23 40, for example?
24 MS. NOBRIGA: Budget, but the amount of
25 dollars that was, you know, originally in the contract.
Page 119
1 Also, the area, you know, so for like Lanai, we didn't
2 see the need to have a full-time person there, but a
3 part-time person there, so in smaller communities there
4 are part-time people.
5 Q. I see.
6 MS. NOBRIGA: In the larger communities
7 there are --
8 Q. Full-time?
9 MS. NOBRIGA: -- full-time.
10 Q. You do have 40 hour employees, 40 hour a week
11 employees then?
12 MS. NOBRIGA: Uh huh.
13 Q. Sure. How many of these 21 are actually 40
14 hour a week employees, about?
15 MS. FOLLOWELL: I better count.
16 MS. NOBRIGA: About seven.
17 Q. All right. By the way, do you have like a
18 chief financial officer who handles bookkeeping aspects
19 of the business?
20 MS. NOBRIGA: We have an administrative
21 support specialist who --
22 Q. One person who handles that?
23 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
24 Q. Do you have a grant writer, for example, or you
25 folks write your own grants?
Page 120
1 MS. NOBRIGA: We have -- we have
2 someone who is -- who we've used in the past and both
3 Vick and I have worked together with him in writing
4 these.
5 Q. All right. Am I to understand, ma'am, that
6 Hawaii Families As Allies functions primarily to service
7 Felix children?
8 MS. NOBRIGA: We primarily function to
9 service families who have kids with mental health needs.
10 Q. I see. So it might be Felix or not Felix then?
11 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct, and that's
12 because we have two grants. So --
13 Q. But the one with the DOH, CAMHD, that is
14 related to Felix --
15 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
16 Q. -- families, is it not?
17 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
18 Q. So what you just said, services for families,
19 then do you not provide services directly to the
20 students?
21 MS. NOBRIGA: No, we don't. One of the
22 things that we have been educating people on over the
23 last two, three years is that we're not a provider, a
24 service provider agency, we're a statewide family
25 organization. Our staff, our parents who have children
Page 121
1 with serious emotional behaviorial problems, they are not
2 therapists, and we don't provide -- we don't provide any
3 of the array of services that a service providing agency
4 would provide. What we do is -- primarily is provide
5 support to a parent if they're going to an IEP meeting
6 and they need that additional type of support or
7 guidance, we provide that. We provide the support also
8 if they're attending a coordinated service plan and they
9 need that emotional type of support, we will help them
10 with that. We also provide the informational workshops
11 around various disabilities like attention deficit
12 hyperactivity disorder, conduct disorder, oppositional
13 defiant, also how to communicate and negotiate, those
14 kinds of skill development to the parents of these kids.
15 Q. I see.
16 MS. NOBRIGA: So it's different from
17 the provider.
18 Q. I see. Just parents, not other family members,
19 just parents?
20 MS. NOBRIGA: Parents. It can be
21 extended, like if a grandparent is the primary care giver
22 of their -- the child, we can give it to them.
23 Q. Sure. I've heard the phrase respite care. Is
24 that what you provide, also?
25 MS. NOBRIGA: We don't provide any
Page 122
1 respite care.
2 Q. What's your understanding of the word -- the
3 term respite care as it's used in the industry? I mean I
4 used the term, but what is your understanding of it?
5 MS. NOBRIGA: My understanding as a
6 parent who I'm a parent of a child with mental health
7 needs, also, my understanding of respite care is to
8 provide that respite support so parents are able to have
9 a break in between the responsibility of being
10 overwhelmed in caring for their child. It's primary
11 giving them -- this is my own definition, my own belief,
12 it may not be the same definition, or you know, standard
13 that has been set up, but that's what respite --
14 Q. All right.
15 MS. NOBRIGA: -- care is for me and for
16 a lot of families.
17 Q. Are there organizations that exist to provide
18 that type of care or organizations that do provide that
19 type of care? Not necessarily exist for that.
20 MS. FOLLOWELL: Yeah.
21 MS. NOBRIGA: I believe so, yeah.
22 There's respite services out there that, you know --
23 Q. Miss Followell, you are nodding your head.
24 MS. FOLLOWELL: Yeah. I believe there
25 is respite. I can't -- don't know who provides it at
Page 123
1 this time, but yeah, there are respite services, yeah.
2 Q. All right. Is there any reason why Hawaii
3 Families As Allies does not provide that type of care,
4 that type of service? There may not be a reason, I'm
5 just curious.
6 MS. NOBRIGA: You know, I think it is
7 not the vision or the mission of Hawaii Families As
8 Allies as a statewide family organization to provide
9 treatment services. That is not --
10 Q. All right. So who's -- who, if you know, who
11 actually brought then this Hawaii Families As Allies
12 group to Hawaii and started it as part of a national
13 federation?
14 MS. NOBRIGA: Actually the group
15 started out with a handful of parents in a garage. It's
16 actually a grass roots local organization. Later on
17 after forming, they became a chapter of the national
18 federation, and that's where the organization gets its
19 information from a national level and support.
20 Q. What -- you used the term parent partners. Is
21 that another program or group or is that part of --
22 MS. NOBRIGA: That's part of Hawaii
23 Families As Allies.
24 Q. And what -- what program is parent partners,
25 what is that?
Page 124
1 MS. NOBRIGA: They're the ones who
2 provide the technical assistance, support. They
3 facilitate the support groups, they conduct the
4 informational workshops out in their community.
5 Q. For the families?
6 MS. NOBRIGA: Uh huh.
7 Q. I see. But they are a part of HFAA?
8 MS. NOBRIGA: They're a part of HFAA.
9 Q. A division of HFAA?
10 MS. NOBRIGA: They're the employees of
11 HFAA.
12 MS. FOLLOWELL: They're the employees.
13 Q. I've seen the term HFAA certified. What does
14 that stand for? Who are you certifying, giving
15 certifications to? Does that sound familiar to you?
16 MS. NOBRIGA: I'm not sure.
17 Q. Do you provide training that results in some
18 type of certification being provided?
19 MS. NOBRIGA: Oh, Hawaii Families as
20 Allies, when we were subcontracted with the Hawaii Ohana
21 Project, we, both Vicky and myself provided the training
22 for the therapeutic aides statewide. And so during that
23 process, people were giving certificates and
24 certification to -- stating that they, you know, attended
25 and participated in the workshops, and therefore, they
Page 125
1 can work, or -- as a therapeutic aide.
2 Q. Were these workshops some type of requirement
3 that either the Felix Consent Decree or any similar type
4 of decree required -- required groups like yours to hold?
5 MS. NOBRIGA: No.
6 Q. The workshops? I'm wondering why you have
7 these workshops, what mandates these workshops to be
8 held?
9 MS. NOBRIGA: Are you talking about the
10 therapeutic aide training or are you talking about our
11 workshops?
12 Q. I'm not sure, ma'am. For my own sake -- I'm
13 sorry, I'm not very familiar with your group and I'm
14 trying to determine the types of services you perform.
15 You gave me some explanation. Let me ask it this way.
16 If we look at your budget --
17 MS. NOBRIGA: Uh huh.
18 Q. -- of about almost $800,000, other than the
19 $60,000 that is provided as a federal grant --
20 MS. NOBRIGA: Uh huh.
21 Q. How -- what is the major portion of that
22 $725,000, what is it spent on?
23 MS. NOBRIGA: The major part is spent
24 on salary for the employees, the 21 employees that we
25 have.
Page 126
1 Q. Salary for employees that provide what type of
2 service?
3 MS. NOBRIGA: That provides the
4 technical assistance, that also provides the
5 informational workshops. We have about 13 different
6 curriculums that are designed for families, for parents,
7 and it's conducted in a way that it's family friendly,
8 and that's because the parent -- the employees are
9 parents themselves, and so it is conducted in that
10 manner.
11 Q. Are there certain subject areas that year after
12 year you conduct these workshops in?
13 MS. NOBRIGA: Well, for our
14 organization, we provide at least two workshops a month.
15 Q. A month?
16 MS. NOBRIGA: And each parent partner
17 is responsible in doing that. And like I say, there's
18 like 13 different curriculums and it's ongoing and it's
19 in rotation. And it's basically around the need of the
20 families themselves. So if we get a request that oh, you
21 know, this community would like to have this certain, you
22 know, workshop, we'll go ahead and plan it and --
23 Q. I see.
24 MS. NOBRIGA: -- conduct it.
25 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Madam
Page 127
1 Chair, might this be an appropriate time to break?
2 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Yes.
3 Members, we'll be asking for a motion for executive
4 session and we will be taking a break at this time and
5 the witnesses, we'll ask you to return probably at around
6 one.
7 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: One.
8 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: One o'clock
9 and we'll reconvene at that time. Members, the motion by
10 your co-chairs is that we break at this time and convene
11 in executive session. We will have to discuss issues
12 such as Miss Schrag and our counsel's advice on how to
13 proceed on that. We have the matters of subpoenas for
14 the witnesses, we will also have to come back and make
15 decisions on the submissions that various witnesses have
16 given us, primarily the written testimonies that we would
17 like to have made part of the record, so with that, we
18 ask that we convene in executive session. Any discussion
19 or questions for the members? If not, Co-Chair Saiki?
20 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
21 Co-Chair Hanabusa?
22 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Aye.
23 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Vice
24 Chair Kokubun?
25 VICE-CHAIR SENATOR KOKUBUN: Aye.
Page 128
1 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Vice
2 Chair Oshiro is excused. Senator Buen?
3 SENATOR BUEN: Aye.
4 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
5 Representative Ito?
6 REPRESENTATIVE ITO: Aye.
7 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
8 Representative Kawakami?
9 REPRESENTATIVE KAWAKAMI: Aye.
10 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
11 Representative Leong?
12 REPRESENTATIVE LEONG: Aye.
13 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
14 Representative Marumoto?
15 REPRESENTATIVE MARUMOTO: Aye.
16 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
17 Representative Matsuura?
18 REPRESENTATIVE MATSUURA: Aye.
19 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Senator
20 Sakamoto is excused. Senator Slom?
21 SENATOR SLOM: Aye.
22 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: The
23 motion passes.
24 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Members, we
25 will convene in the next room in executive session and we
Page 129
1 will recess this hearing until one o'clock. Thank you
2 very much.
3 (Recess.)
4 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
5 Members, we'd like to reconvene our hearing and we'll c
6 continue with questioning by Mr. Kawashima.
7 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Thank you,
8 Chair Saiki.
9 Q. I think when we were -- before we broke, I was
10 asking you questions about the types of services you
11 provide, and you, among other things, testified about
12 different programs or seminars, training sessions you put
13 on for parents, right? Now, when you have these training
14 sessions, for example, for parents, is it mandatory that
15 the parents attend?
16 MS. NOBRIGA: No.
17 MS. FOLLOWELL: No.
18 Q. It's voluntary?
19 MS. NOBRIGA: It's voluntary.
20 Q. Are they paid anything for attending?
21 MS. NOBRIGA: They're not paid to
22 attend. We do offer a ten dollar stipend to help defray
23 the cost of child care and transportation.
24 Q. That's just a ten dollar stipend if they come?
25 MS. NOBRIGA: Yeah.
Page 130
1 Q. And what level percentage attendance have you
2 been experiencing in the last say three years or two
3 years?
4 MS. NOBRIGA: On an average there's
5 about ten participants in the training.
6 Q. I see. Is it that you just arrange it for ten
7 people and ten people come or do you arrange it for as
8 many as want to come and ten appear?
9 MS. NOBRIGA: It all depends. We
10 haven't, you know, we haven't experienced turning away
11 people from the training, the workshops, and it also
12 depends on the facility where the workshop is being held.
13 If there's a limit seating, then it would be stated on
14 the flyer that there is a limited seating.
15 Q. I see. For example, where might these
16 workshops be held?
17 MS. NOBRIGA: It could be held like at
18 a community center, at the library, places like that.
19 Q. In the community where you want to have the
20 workshop take place for the parents there, right?
21 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
22 Q. So if you say you get ten, for example, in a
23 particular workshop, had the maximum number that could be --
24 could be allowed appear, how many are we talking about
25 could come and you could still accommodate them all?
Page 131
1 MS. FOLLOWELL: Fifteen to 20.
2 MS. NOBRIGA: About fifteen to 20.
3 Q. So you're getting actually 50 percent, maybe 60 --
4 70 percent attendance of the ones who could come for
5 these workshops, I'm talking about?
6 MS. NOBRIGA: I'm not sure what you
7 mean as far as that percentage.
8 Q. Who actually carries, you know, puts on the
9 workshop?
10 MS. NOBRIGA: Our parent partners, our
11 employees put on the workshops, and what they do is they
12 make arrangements with the facility in the community,
13 they set the time, and usually it's in the evening
14 because it's convenient for parents to come out, and then
15 what they do is they post flyers in the community. They
16 also provide the flyers to the school and the family
17 guidance centers and the other --
18 Q. I see.
19 MS. NOBRIGA: And provider agencies and
20 so it's more of that.
21 Q. I see. Now, do these -- do these workshops
22 provide for such training such that if a person or
23 persons should attend, they might then be able to obtain
24 employment related to Felix matters?
25 MS. FOLLOWELL: No.
Page 132
1 MS. NOBRIGA: No.
2 Q. No? It's just training or workshops to work
3 with them in handling their own children?
4 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
5 MS. NOBRIGA: Right. It's done in a
6 real family supported manner, you know, and they come
7 out, they get further information, and that information
8 help them with their child.
9 Q. I see.
10 MS. NOBRIGA: And it depends on the
11 topic, you know. If we're doing a workshop on
12 communication and negotiation, it also helps them in
13 working with their provider or their child's teacher.
14 Q. I see.
15 MS. NOBRIGA: And how to work with
16 them.
17 Q. All right. Now, your group, Hawaii Families As
18 Allies, was involved with the multi-system therapy
19 continuum project or experiment, were you not?
20 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
21 Q. What were your roles in that?
22 MS. NOBRIGA: The -- our role was as a
23 partnership with the continuum of care. It was to hire
24 three family resource specialists to provide parent type
25 of support like the parent partners. The only thing they
Page 133
1 didn't do was conduct informational workshops. But they
2 attended IEP meetings and coordinated service planning
3 meetings with the family. They helped the family look
4 for community resources other than the formal resources
5 that they were receiving.
6 Q. When you say they, meaning who?
7 MS. NOBRIGA: The family resource
8 specialist. Our employees would help the families
9 identify community resources that would help them.
10 Q. I see.
11 MS. NOBRIGA: Their own family.
12 Q. But was that a part of a multi-systemic, the
13 MST continuum project though?
14 MS. FOLLOWELL: Yeah.
15 MS. NOBRIGA: Yeah. That they would
16 have a family resource specialist.
17 Q. I see. I see. Now, that MST project,
18 continuum project was to last two years, was it not?
19 MS. NOBRIGA: I believe --
20 Q. If you know?
21 MS. NOBRIGA: I believe it was -- I
22 think it was more than two years.
23 Q. More than two years. All right. But the MST
24 project is no longer in existence, is it, to your
25 knowledge?
Page 134
1 MS. NOBRIGA: No, they're not.
2 Q. When did that end?
3 MS. NOBRIGA: I believe it ended in
4 August.
5 Q. Of this year?
6 MS. NOBRIGA: Yeah.
7 Q. What was explained to you as to why the project
8 was terminated in August?
9 MS. NOBRIGA: It was -- it was because
10 the research project didn't have the amount of kids and
11 families in that project. They had an X amount of
12 families that needed to be in the project in order to do
13 the research and they weren't able to get that many kids
14 into the project.
15 Q. I see.
16 MS. NOBRIGA: And it was stated that it
17 was because of our service system providing adequate
18 services to kids. Because my understanding of it, it was
19 sort of like a diversion, you know, the kids came through
20 like Kahi, Queen's, and you know, instead of usual
21 services they would enter into the MST continuum of care.
22 Q. So that your understanding was then for the
23 continuum project to be validated, it needed a certain
24 number of families in there?
25 MS. NOBRIGA: That was my
Page 135
1 understanding.
2 Q. And they were just not able to get those
3 numbers into the project?
4 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
5 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
6 Q. And so at some point they decided then they
7 could not have a valid experiment, I guess, and just
8 terminated the whole thing?
9 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
10 MS. NOBRIGA: Yeah. It sounded like
11 that.
12 Q. Now, did you run into any problem in terms of
13 transitioning people who were involved with that, people
14 and children who were involved with the experiment out of
15 the experiment?
16 MS. NOBRIGA: What was explained to us
17 as far as the transition of those families was some of
18 the families who they were going to be transitioned back
19 to the family guidance centers and the care coordinators
20 were going to continue to work with them and seek other
21 services for those families. Some families were going to
22 be transitioned immediately and some was -- they were
23 going to be a longer transition process.
24 Q. I see. I see. From what you could see while
25 you were involved with the -- that project, the continuum
Page 136
1 project what, for a year at least?
2 MS. FOLLOWELL: At least a year.
3 MS. NOBRIGA: Yeah.
4 Q. Two years?
5 MS. NOBRIGA: When it started.
6 Q. Do you remember when it started? About when?
7 MS. NOBRIGA: August, September --
8 Q. Of --
9 MS. NOBRIGA: 2000.
10 Q. All right. So one year then?
11 MS. NOBRIGA: Yeah.
12 Q. During that one year then, would you be able to
13 tell me whether or not it appeared to be working, the
14 project? If you can. I mean if you can't, that's fine.
15 MS. NOBRIGA: For a couple of the
16 families that we knew of, they felt that it was working
17 for them.
18 Q. I see.
19 MS. NOBRIGA: I had, you know, no
20 access to all the families or face to face. This
21 information came from the family resource specialists
22 themselves.
23 MS. FOLLOWELL: And also, a couple of
24 the families that came from them that the MST did help
25 their child.
Page 137
1 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, I understand though
2 that HFAA actually provided employees to work with CAMHD
3 on this continuum experiment, is that a fair statement?
4 MS. NOBRIGA: It's a --
5 Q. In other words, entered into arrangements where
6 employees from HFAA would actually work with CAMHD on
7 that continuum project?
8 MS. NOBRIGA: Work with the MST?
9 Q. Yes.
10 MS. NOBRIGA: Yes.
11 Q. Yes, MST continuum project. How many?
12 MS. NOBRIGA: There was four.
13 Q. For that whole year?
14 MS. NOBRIGA: Yes, but we had -- we
15 haven't had the opportunity to hire all four at one time.
16 There was a consistency of two to three family resource
17 specialists.
18 Q. During that whole year, but you couldn't get up
19 to the four that actually they wanted?
20 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
21 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
22 Q. All right. But am I to understand then that
23 HFAA hired and compensated these employees but they were
24 loaned to the MST continuum project, is that how it
25 worked?
Page 138
1 MS. FOLLOWELL: They were our employees
2 hired by Hawaii Families As Allies. There was a
3 partnership between CAMHD and Hawaii Families As Allies
4 in doing this partnership with the family piece, so they
5 are -- they were our employees.
6 Q. But not working under your control and
7 supervision, they were working under MST's control and
8 supervision?
9 MS. NOBRIGA: Clinical -- clinical
10 decisions were made by Dr. John Donkervoet and his team.
11 Q. Right.
12 MS. NOBRIGA: We had supervision
13 oversight as far as administrative --
14 Q. Oh, sure.
15 MS. NOBRIGA: -- issues that would
16 arise from the parents themselves and the family resource
17 specialists needed some guidance as far as, you know,
18 what the resources, they would come to us.
19 Q. I see. I see, but clinically, they were --
20 they were not under your supervision then?
21 MS. NOBRIGA: No.
22 Q. Okay. Do you know why this arrangement was
23 used, why they needed to have employees compensated by
24 your organization to work with MST rather than them
25 having their own employees?
Page 139
1 MS. NOBRIGA: The idea was to hire
2 family members to fill the family resource specialist
3 position. It was a unique position like the parent
4 partners, so it wasn't to hire like a professional, it
5 was --
6 Q. I see. That's the term, family resource
7 specialist. That's what these people were that worked
8 with MST?
9 MS. NOBRIGA: Yes.
10 Q. But MST couldn't hire these people themselves
11 if they were going to work with them clinically at least?
12 If you know.
13 MS. NOBRIGA: I -- I have no idea --
14 Q. I understand.
15 MS. NOBRIGA: -- if they could or not.
16 Q. While this was taking place, were there any
17 complaints with how -- complaints or problems as to how
18 the MST experiment was being managed?
19 MS. NOBRIGA: Some of our family
20 resource specialists brought concerns to Vicky and myself
21 regarding the skill level of some of the MST therapists
22 and case managers.
23 Q. And again, these MST therapists and case
24 managers were not -- were not Hawaii Families -- Hawaii
25 Families As Allies' employees, were they?
Page 140
1 MS. NOBRIGA: No.
2 MS. FOLLOWELL: No.
3 Q. They're employees of whom, do you know?
4 MS. NOBRIGA: CAMHD.
5 MS. FOLLOWELL: CAMHD.
6 Q. CAMHD. Okay. How were those complaints
7 resolved, if they were?
8 MS. NOBRIGA: We had conversations with
9 Dr. John Donkervoet about the issues and concerns that
10 the family resource specialists had around those -- the
11 lack of skills of some of the therapists and case
12 managers, and the resolution to that was that they were
13 going to provide more training and mentoring of these
14 folks.
15 Q. I see. Now, so that the -- if I may use the
16 word friction then, would have been on the one hand
17 between the family resource specialists and on the other
18 hand with the MST therapists and case managers, that was
19 the friction that was there?
20 MS. NOBRIGA: Yeah.
21 Q. And the family resource specialists were all
22 local people?
23 MS. NOBRIGA: Yes.
24 Q. From the Waianae area?
25 MS. NOBRIGA: No.
Page 141
1 Q. Not necessarily, just local people?
2 MS. NOBRIGA: Yeah.
3 Q. And the MST therapists and case managers, where
4 were they from? Were they local people, also?
5 MS. NOBRIGA: Local people in various
6 communities.
7 Q. I see.
8 MS. NOBRIGA: I'm not sure what
9 community they're from.
10 Q. But were any of these MST therapists and case
11 managers from the mainland, to your knowledge?
12 MS. NOBRIGA: From what I've heard from
13 the family resource specialists, I believe two -- either
14 two case managers or two therapists came from the
15 mainland.
16 Q. All right. Was that a sense of -- excuse me,
17 was that a source of friction between the groups, to your
18 knowledge?
19 MS. NOBRIGA: I think primarily the
20 friction was around skills. The family resource
21 specialists that we had hired, they held positions at
22 different provider -- from different provider agencies
23 and they were -- provided experience in providing case
24 management services. And so the way they believe case
25 management services should have been provided, they felt
Page 142
1 that these folks weren't providing that type of level of --
2 Q. I see. I see. Now, did a Mr. Foster come to
3 Hawaii -- Ray Foster, was he part of any workshops that
4 you put on?
5 MS. FOLLOWELL: He was part of service
6 testing.
7 Q. Service testing. Was Hawaii Families As Allies
8 involved with service testing?
9 MS. NOBRIGA: Yes.
10 Q. How were you involved?
11 MS. NOBRIGA: Early on during the
12 period where there was the Hawaii Ohana Project and
13 Hawaii Families As Allies was subcontracted, we were able
14 to be trained by Dr. Ray Foster in doing service testing
15 and using Hawaii Families as Allies employees who are
16 parents to be reviewers of service testing out in the
17 Leeward Oahu area.
18 Q. That in fact took place then?
19 MS. NOBRIGA: Uh huh.
20 MS. FOLLOWELL: Yes.
21 Q. They trained them and these people ended up
22 being paid employees or paid independent contractors,
23 perhaps?
24 MS. FOLLOWELL: No.
25 Q. No?
Page 143
1 MS. NOBRIGA: No, I don't think -- I
2 don't think any of our -- the families were paid to do
3 service testing, but we were able to utilize the staff
4 who are parents to do service testing.
5 Q. I see. So they were paid as paid staff?
6 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
7 Q. Not necessarily as service testers?
8 MS. NOBRIGA: Right.
9 Q. And what exactly would they do, what kind of
10 things would they do as part of service testing? What
11 jobs or assignments did they have?
12 MS. NOBRIGA: They were partnered with
13 a lead person who was trained also in service testing,
14 and they would go out with them and conduct interviews
15 with parents, with the children, with teachers, with
16 providers, whoever was involved in that kid's life and
17 their treatment. They would then discuss their findings
18 and develop a report, a service testing report.
19 Q. Okay. Who -- have you -- are you familiar with
20 a Dr. Terry Lee?
21 MS. FOLLOWELL: Yes.
22 MS. NOBRIGA: Yes.
23 Q. Who is Dr. Lee?
24 MS. NOBRIGA: He -- well, for the MST
25 continuum, I believe he was the clinical director.
Page 144
1 Q. Here in Hawaii?
2 MS. NOBRIGA: Uh huh.
3 Q. Is he from Hawaii?
4 MS. NOBRIGA: No.
5 Q. Did you meet with him from time to time?
6 MS. NOBRIGA: We have.
7 Q. Do you recall a meeting with Dr. Lee, among
8 others, where he said if he had his way, he would fire
9 all the therapists?
10 MS. FOLLOWELL: I wasn't at a meeting --
11 MS. NOBRIGA: I don't recall --
12 MS. FOLLOWELL: -- that that happened.
13 Q. There was no such meeting? Were you at a
14 meeting where Dr. Lee made a statement that Hawaii has a
15 small, quotes, brain pool, end quotes?
16 MS. FOLLOWELL: I wasn't at that
17 meeting.
18 MS. NOBRIGA: No.
19 Q. Were you at a meeting where Dr. Lee made a
20 statement that there were no progress notes written by
21 case managers and that therapists -- a therapist was not
22 seeing a client or family for weeks at a time?
23 MS. FOLLOWELL: No.
24 MS. NOBRIGA: No. I wasn't --
25 Q. Nothing like that?
Page 145
1 MS. NOBRIGA: -- at a meeting like
2 that, no.
3 Q. You're not aware of any of those things
4 happening, are you?
5 MS. NOBRIGA: No.
6 MS. FOLLOWELL: Not being at that
7 meeting.
8 MS. NOBRIGA: We weren't at that
9 meeting. Information regarding those issues came from
10 the family resource specialists.
11 Q. The family resource specialists who may have
12 been at that meeting with Dr. Lee?
13 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
14 Q. Where they claimed he made those types of
15 statements?
16 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
17 Q. The statement that Hawaii is a small brain
18 pool, that came back to you?
19 MS. NOBRIGA: From the resource
20 specialist.
21 Q. Do you know why Dr. Lee may have said that?
22 MS. NOBRIGA: No, I don't.
23 Q. How about did they tell you that Dr. Lee made a
24 statement that he, Dr. Lee, was aware of fraud going on
25 with the State team?
Page 146
1 MS. FOLLOWELL: No.
2 MS. NOBRIGA: That I have not heard.
3 Q. Okay. Anything else that you can remember of
4 that nature that the family resource specialist may have
5 related to you that they learned from Dr. Lee?
6 MS. FOLLOWELL: No.
7 Q. All right, thank you. That's all I have.
8 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
9 you. Members, we'll begin with questioning by members.
10 We will follow our five minute rule. We'll begin with
11 Vice Chair Oshiro followed by Vice-Chair Kokubun.
12 VICE-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE OSHIRO: I'll
13 pass at this time. Thank you very much.
14 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Vice
15 Chair Kokubun followed by Representative Ito.
16 VICE-CHAIR SENATOR KOKUBUN: Thank you,
17 Co-Chair Saiki.
18 BY VICE-CHAIR SENATOR KOKUBUN:
19 Q. I wanted to just follow up a little bit on the
20 training, you know, that you provided, for I guess
21 parents. And you talked about, I guess your staff people
22 were designated as parent partners and they were going to
23 provide training regarding -- and then this is where I
24 need clarification. Were they going to provide training
25 with respect to what was going to take place in service
Page 147
1 testing? Was that one of the areas?
2 MS. NOBRIGA: No. They provided the
3 informational workshops, which is different from
4 training.
5 Q. Okay.
6 MS. NOBRIGA: Yeah.
7 Q. Okay. So we're drawing a distinction between
8 workshops and training?
9 MS. NOBRIGA: Right.
10 Q. Okay.
11 MS. NOBRIGA: The training that we have
12 conducted, this is both Vicky and myself, was the
13 therapeutic aide training, and this is --
14 Q. Okay.
15 MS. NOBRIGA: -- a few years --
16 Q. Okay.
17 MS. NOBRIGA: -- back.
18 Q. Now, with respect to the service testing --
19 MS. NOBRIGA: Uh huh.
20 Q. Was part of the responsibility for your
21 organization to inform parents about how service testing
22 was going to be conducted?
23 MS. NOBRIGA: Yes. Our parent partners
24 are -- have been trained around the service testing, too,
25 and therefore, they're able to share some of that
Page 148
1 information with the parents in a way that it's less
2 threatening for them if their child were going to be
3 service testing.
4 Q. To kind of to prepare them as advocates for
5 their child?
6 MS. NOBRIGA: Just to be a little bit
7 more familiar with the process and what to expect. Yeah.
8 Q. How about -- how about specifically with
9 respect to parents' rights within the consent decree?
10 MS. NOBRIGA: The parents we have hired
11 are very much familar with their rights as parents of
12 kids within the system. And therefore, they can also
13 help and support other parents with that information.
14 However, we are not -- and we haven't provided training
15 around IDEA and 504 rules and regulations. There is
16 another organization that provides that kind of
17 informational workshops, and so we refer families if they
18 need that level of assistance, to that organization so
19 that they can have adequate support around those Federal
20 laws --
21 Q. Okay.
22 MS. NOBRIGA: -- and rights.
23 Q. What organization is that?
24 MS. NOBRIGA: The
25 Learning Disabilities of Hawaii.
Page 149
1 Q. Okay. Did you receive any instruction or input
2 from plaintiffs' attorneys, you know, plaintiffs'
3 attorneys who represent Felix class students?
4 MS. NOBRIGA: Input?
5 Q. What to expect in a service testing, how to,
6 you know, better understanding of the concept of service
7 testing, what the consent decree perhaps was aiming to
8 focus on?
9 MS. NOBRIGA: If we received any
10 information from the attorneys, the plaintiffs'
11 attorneys?
12 Q. Yeah.
13 MS. NOBRIGA: Regarding service
14 testing?
15 Q. Right.
16 MS. NOBRIGA: No.
17 Q. Okay. And this is a statewide -- your
18 organization was providing these services, I'm assuming
19 the training and workshops?
20 MS. NOBRIGA: Statewide.
21 Q. Statewide?
22 MS. NOBRIGA: Uh huh.
23 Q. And you were able to do that with your staff of
24 21?
25 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
Page 150
1 Q. And that's just as you mentioned, just for my
2 clarification, that was seven full-time, so I'm assuming
3 14 part-time?
4 MS. NOBRIGA: I think it was seven
5 part-time and the rest is full-time.
6 Q. Oh, okay, the other way around, 14.
7 MS. NOBRIGA: Yeah.
8 Q. All right. Thank you.
9 VICE-CHAIR SENATOR KOKUBUN: Thank you,
10 Co-Chair Saiki.
11 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
12 you. Representative Ito followed by Senator Buen.
13 REPRESENTATIVE ITO: Thank you,
14 Co-Chair Saiki.
15 REPRESENTATIVE ITO:
16 Q. You know, have you worked with Na Laukoa?
17 MS. FOLLOWELL: We provide therapeutic
18 aide training for service providers when we were doing
19 therapeutic aide training back in '99 where we went
20 through Oahu and the different islands and Na Laukoa was
21 a service provider at that time and their employees came
22 to our therapeutic aide training.
23 Q. You folks did technical assistance then?
24 MS. FOLLOWELL: No. We provided
25 therapeutic aide training.
Page 151
1 Q. Okay. You know, I have a copy over here from
2 PREL. By the way, do you know PREL?
3 MS. FOLLOWELL: No, I don't.
4 Q. Okay. Well, it says over here this is
5 technical assistance for the following complexes. One is
6 the Leeward District, you know, the Kapolei.
7 MS. FOLLOWELL: Uh huh.
8 Q. You forks work in the Kapolei area?
9 MS. FOLLOWELL: We have a parent
10 partner at Central office, which her complex would be
11 Kapolei.
12 Q. And we have another one at Waianae?
13 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct, we have a
14 parent partner for the Leeward area.
15 Q. Seven schools, 7,079 enrolled students?
16 MS. NOBRIGA: I'm not sure how much.
17 Q. Anyway, this is the breakdown they gave us
18 here.
19 MS. FOLLOWELL: Okay.
20 Q. Okay. So Na Laukoa, what, you folks, they paid
21 you for the services?
22 MS. FOLLOWELL: No. We provided
23 training for -- the therapeutic aide training to staff of
24 Na Laukoa along with other service providers. So Na
25 Laukoa staff came to our training and that's the only
Page 152
1 involvement we had with Na Laukoa back in '99 -- '98,
2 '99.
3 Q. So it was free training then?
4 MS. NOBRIGA: It was free training as
5 to -- for the provider agency, but we were -- this was
6 during the time where we were subcontracted under the
7 Hawaii Ohana Project, and it was part of the project's
8 goals were to provide this kind of training to them.
9 Q. Okay. You know that HFAA -- you folks sit in
10 on IEPs?
11 MS. FOLLOWELL: We do if the parents
12 ask for our assistance, we provide the support, yes.
13 Q. So you folks recommend services during the IEP?
14 MS. FOLLOWELL: No, we don't.
15 MS. NOBRIGA: We help the IEP team in
16 looking at various resources and looking at different
17 treatments that could provide the kind of support that
18 the child may need. And then we provide the support that
19 the families need and a lot has to do with clarifying the
20 information that's coming across from professionals, and
21 because sometimes as parents we don't understand how, you
22 know, what professionals are saying. It's like the
23 Department of Education has a different language from the
24 Department of Health, families have a different language
25 from them and so it's more of a clarification and a
Page 153
1 better understanding in those meetings.
2 Q. So you folks do sit in the IEPs then?
3 MS. FOLLOWELL: Uh huh.
4 MS. NOBRIGA: Uh huh.
5 Q. This is the HFAA?
6 MS. FOLLOWELL: Uh huh.
7 Q. Okay. You know the Waianae Mental Health?
8 MS. NOBRIGA: Yes.
9 Q. You folks what, under that umbrella or --
10 MS. NOBRIGA: No.
11 Q. Or separate from?
12 MS. NOBRIGA: We're -- yes. We're
13 separate. We're a nonprofit organization. We're not
14 connected to anyone.
15 Q. Who's the director of the Waianae Mental
16 Health?
17 MS. NOBRIGA: Poka --
18 MS. FOLLOWELL: Lanui --
19 MS. NOBRIGA: Burgess.
20 Q. Oh, that's the flag one?
21 MS. FOLLOWELL: If he still is that,
22 yeah.
23 Q. Okay. You know that -- just for clarification,
24 you know, you folks had a budget of 325,000 for one year
25 and then you mentioned 725,000. That money goes to the
Page 154
1 what, Hawaii Ohana Project?
2 MS. NOBRIGA: No, no, no, no, no. That
3 funding is for Hawaii Families as Allies. The Hawaii
4 Ohana Project is no longer in existence. It was a
5 demonstration project for five years and it ended and
6 we're one of the subcontractors for that to provide the
7 family piece of that demonstration project.
8 Q. Okay, thank you for clarifying that.
9 REPRESENTATIVE ITO: Okay. Thank you
10 very much, Co-Chair.
11 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
12 you. Senator Buen followed by Representative Kawakami.
13 SENATOR BUEN: Thank you, Co-Chair
14 Saiki.
15 BY SENATOR BUEN:
16 Q. In the $725,000 a year, this was the second
17 year --
18 MS. NOBRIGA: Yes.
19 Q. -- when the amounts were modified, the first
20 year was 325,000. Now, you mentioned that services are
21 provided on Molokai and Lanai by one of your employees,
22 is that correct?
23 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct. The first year
24 we had a part-time parent partner on both of those
25 islands. The second year we hired six kupuna aides for
Page 155
1 the island of Molokai, one aide for each school. They
2 worked ten hours a week each, so it was a small
3 initiative for Molokai.
4 Q. This was for the first year?
5 MS. NOBRIGA: This was for the second
6 year.
7 Q. Second year?
8 MS. NOBRIGA: This is for the second
9 year, and their positions ended August of this year. And
10 my understanding is that the Department of Education has
11 picked up that project.
12 Q. I see. I see.
13 MS. NOBRIGA: Or that initiative.
14 Q. I see. So no longer they're receiving any
15 payment from this agency, HFAA?
16 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
17 Q. Understood. Okay. So you don't have any
18 employee going to Molokai anymore?
19 MS. NOBRIGA: Not at this time.
20 Q. As of August. What about Lanai?
21 MS. NOBRIGA: We have a part-time
22 person on Lanai.
23 Q. Mr. Kawashima asked about the 25 hour a week
24 that is provided on Lanai, and he mentioned because of
25 budget, is that the reason why they're provided only 25
Page 156
1 hours a week?
2 MS. FOLLOWELL: In the smaller
3 communities.
4 MS. NOBRIGA: Well, the first year we
5 had set up -- the project did have part-time staff
6 because the dollar amount was much lower than what it is
7 today. It's not only about budget though, it's about how
8 many families there are out there in -- on Lanai there's
9 only about 2,000 families and X amount of families that
10 are actually in the system. So it would not be
11 appropriate to have like a full-time staff on Lanai when
12 the demand is not -- there's no need for it.
13 Q. How is the demand determined? Is there a
14 survey that is given to the people on Lanai? Do you go
15 and have a meeting out there with families who may be
16 interested? How is that determined where -- if there is
17 a need?
18 MS. NOBRIGA: We haven't conducted a
19 survey to see if there's a need to increase the parent
20 partners' time in those small community areas. Basically
21 it's around, you know, our target population is the
22 serious emotional behavioral challenged kids, kids that
23 are in the mental health system. So if Lanai only have
24 50 families that, you know, 50 kids that are identified
25 with mental health needs, not all 50 families are going
Page 157
1 to access our services. There will be a percentage of
2 those families that will access the services.
3 Q. So you know that if there is then -- if there
4 are that many families, the 50 families?
5 MS. NOBRIGA: Oh, no, I don't know for
6 sure. I can't on the top of my head tell you how many
7 families there are in, you know, these communities. I
8 just threw out that number as an example.
9 Q. I see. Okay. The other question is do you
10 know if there are other agencies or groups that are
11 providing services similar to what HFAA is providing?
12 MS. NOBRIGA: There are other family
13 organizations such as Learning Disabilities that provide
14 services to all kids with disabilities. There's the
15 Special Parent Informational Network that provides
16 referral and information to families. There isn't an
17 organization, a family organization that provides the
18 kind of services we do for a targeted population such as
19 the SED population.
20 Q. Okay. I was given my time slip here. I have
21 some other questions maybe later on. Thank you.
22 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
23 you. Representative Kawakami followed by Senator Slom.
24 REPRESENTATIVE KAWAKAMI: Thank you
25 very much, Chair Saiki.
Page 158
1 BY REPRESENTATIVE KAWAKAMI:
2 Q. First of all, who started the Hawaii Families
3 As Allies here in Hawaii?
4 MS. FOLLOWELL: There was a group of
5 parents back in -- I don't know how long ago who
6 basically had kids who had, you know, serious emotional
7 disturbances --
8 Q. Problems.
9 MS. FOLLOWELL: And they basically
10 supported eac other. I think there were four, four
11 parents, and as Sharon had mentioned earlier, that had
12 started to talk story in a garage setting and that's how
13 they came in to basically supporting each other. That's
14 the start.
15 Q. Okay, and that was in 19 --
16 MS. NOBRIGA: That was in 1986.
17 Q. '86.
18 MS. NOBRIGA: And around 1991, '92,
19 they formed and got together to really establish a
20 nonprofit organization.
21 Q. Okay. Now, you're affiliated with the
22 national, is that correct?
23 MS. NOBRIGA: We're a chapter of --
24 Q. Do you pay dues?
25 MS. NOBRIGA: Yes.
Page 159
1 Q. How much?
2 MS. NOBRIGA: I believe our dues as an
3 organization is $100 a year.
4 Q. $100 a year?
5 MS. NOBRIGA: Yeah.
6 Q. Okay. And what kind of benefits do you get
7 from them? Do they give you services, do they give you --
8 MS. NOBRIGA: We get technical
9 assistance from them. We get information that's coming
10 out of the national level from Washington, DC, we get
11 publication from an organization called Pacer, who is a
12 national organization for learning disabilities, claiming
13 children's publication for children's mental health and
14 we disseminate that information to our families.
15 Q. I see. So that all comes with the $100 fee for
16 the year?
17 MS. NOBRIGA: And we have -- we can
18 call them whenever we need assistance.
19 Q. Do they ever send someone out here to, you
20 know, not check on you but at least to see what you're
21 doing?
22 MS. NOBRIGA: No.
23 Q. No? So you're completely separate except you
24 belong under their chapter?
25 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
Page 160
1 Q. Okay, I wanted to go to you had personnel --
2 now, you said one on Kauai, you do three on the Big
3 Island, Ka'u, Hilo, Kona, one on Molokai, one on Lanai
4 and Oahu one. Okay.
5 MS. NOBRIGA: That was the first year.
6 Q. Yeah. These people are the ones who are
7 service testing? Who's doing the service testing?
8 MS. NOBRIGA: No. Currently they are
9 not service testing. The service testing involvement we
10 had was earlier on when we had a subcontract with --
11 under Ohana, the Hawaii Ohana Project, which is no longer
12 in existence at this time.
13 Q. Okay. So -- but you mentioned you do service
14 testing, so what kind of service testing do you do?
15 MS. NOBRIGA: We don't do service
16 testing. When I had made mention to that, that was early
17 on being under the Hawaii Ohana Project.
18 Q. Okay. Still referring to that.
19 MS. NOBRIGA: Currently, a couple of
20 our parent partners have had the opportunity to service
21 test with the lead reviewer, so like our parent partner
22 from Hilo, our parent partner from Ka'u, have in the past
23 participated.
24 Q. I see. Okay. Now, you have these sessions
25 with parents who have problems, children maybe
Page 161
1 behavioral, etc., how often are these sessions held?
2 MS. NOBRIGA: The sessions you're
3 referring to is the workshops.
4 Q. Yes, these workshops with parents on the
5 different islands.
6 MS. NOBRIGA: Uh huh. Each of the
7 parent partners provide two workshops a month.
8 Q. And what would you say would be the breakdown,
9 like 80 percent are mothers and maybe 20 percent fathers
10 or five percent fathers, 90 percent mothers? Who comes
11 to the workshops?
12 MS. NOBRIGA: Majority of the parents
13 are mothers.
14 Q. Mothers?
15 MS. NOBRIGA: We've had probably a
16 handful of fathers attend.
17 Q. When you say handful, like four or five?
18 MS. NOBRIGA: Four or five.
19 Q. And mothers maybe like ten?
20 MS. NOBRIGA: Yeah.
21 Q. Okay. I guess that's about it. Thank you very
22 much.
23 MS. NOBRIGA: You're welcome.
24 REPRESENTATIVE KAWAKAMI: Thank you,
25 Chairman.
Page 162
1 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
2 you. Senator Slom followed by Representative Leong.
3 SENATOR SLOM: Thank you very much.
4 BY SENATOR SLOM:
5 Q. Did you say that the organization only serves
6 Felix parents?
7 MS. NOBRIGA: Our organization serve
8 parents who have kids with serious emotional behaviorial
9 disorders.
10 Q. Whether they are Felix children or not?
11 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct, because we have
12 another contract, too, from the Federal.
13 Q. Was that the $60,000?
14 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
15 Q. Okay. So what would be the percentage
16 breakdown right now between your work with Felix parents
17 and other parents? Is it preponderant for Felix parents
18 or equal or --
19 MS. NOBRIGA: I think the majority of
20 it is Felix.
21 Q. Is Felix?
22 MS. NOBRIGA: Right.
23 Q. But the Federal contract is specifically for
24 other mental health treatment other than Felix?
25 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
Page 163
1 Q. Okay. And what -- is that an annual contract
2 as well, the Federal contract?
3 MS. NOBRIGA: Three year contract.
4 Q. When does that three years expire?
5 MS. NOBRIGA: Our contract just ended
6 with them on September 30 and we just was awarded a new
7 contract for three years as of September 1 -- October 1.
8 Q. So that would be October 1, 2004 then?
9 MS. NOBRIGA: Uh huh.
10 Q. And is that in the same amount, $60,000?
11 MS. NOBRIGA: 60,000.
12 Q. Per year?
13 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
14 Q. Did they require any kind of reporting or
15 anything that you have to send to them or do they monitor
16 your activities?
17 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct. We have to send
18 a quarterly report in to them.
19 Q. Uh huh.
20 MS. NOBRIGA: And also an expenditure
21 report.
22 Q. Does anyone from the Federal government come
23 and specifically attend any of your training sessions or
24 anything that you do?
25 MS. NOBRIGA: No. No.
Page 164
1 Q. And how about the State contract? That was --
2 that's an annual contract?
3 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
4 Q. And that expires when?
5 MS. NOBRIGA: It expired this past July
6 31 and we had a contract extension as of August 1.
7 Q. For one year?
8 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
9 Q. At the same $725,000?
10 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
11 Q. And you testified earlier that the majority of
12 the expenditures for your organization for both contracts
13 is in personnel, is that correct?
14 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
15 Q. About what percentage would that amount to?
16 MS. NOBRIGA: Probably about
17 two-thirds, I guess.
18 Q. About two-thirds?
19 MS. NOBRIGA: Yeah.
20 Q. And the remaining third, what would be the
21 largest portion of expenditures?
22 MS. NOBRIGA: Travel. Our family
23 conference.
24 Q. Okay. Do you as an organization have any
25 publications yourself, an annual report or quarterly
Page 165
1 reports?
2 MS. NOBRIGA: We --
3 Q. Other than the one that you stated for the
4 Federal government?
5 MS. NOBRIGA: We submit reports to
6 CAMHD. We do -- we submit monthly expenditure reports to
7 them along with quarterly reports addressing the goals of
8 the project. As far as an organization, we disseminate
9 brochures and fax sheets around different children's
10 disabilities, those types of things to families.
11 Q. And the two of you now are currently
12 co-executive directors? Those are salaried positions
13 within the organization?
14 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
15 Q. What is the salary your -- or salary range for
16 those positions?
17 MS. NOBRIGA: Off of the 725 or the
18 total budget?
19 Q. I guess off the total?
20 MS. NOBRIGA: The total, both of us at
21 40,000 a year.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mrs. Nobriga.
23 SENATOR SLOM: Thank you, Co-Chair.
24 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
25 you. Representative Leong followed by Senator Sakamoto.
Page 166
1 REPRESENTATIVE LEONG: Thank you,
2 Chair.
3 BY REPRESENTATIVE LEONG:
4 Q. At the beginning you stated that you were still
5 working on your degrees.
6 MS. FOLLOWELL: Yes. Still trying.
7 Q. Still trying. That's good. And you also chose
8 to be co-chairs as a way of handling this because you had
9 specific skills?
10 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
11 Q. Could you tell me what your specific skills
12 are?
13 MS. NOBRIGA: Well, that's kind of --
14 perhaps I should inform you of Vicky's skills and she
15 should inform you of mine, because that's --
16 Q. Sure. Sure.
17 MS. NOBRIGA: We're not one to talk
18 about our skills.
19 Q. Go ahead then.
20 MS. NOBRIGA: I believe the skills that
21 Vicky has is she's a person who pays attention to
22 details, she has the skill level of planning. She -- I
23 believe she works very well with other people. She has
24 that partnership collaborative skill level that is needed
25 for families and for professionals. She has strong
Page 167
1 values, family values, she -- she's honest. And she's a
2 very -- she's very dedicated and she's a hard worker.
3 MS. FOLLOWELL: Thank you. Basically
4 our partnership is Sharon has -- she's a visionary.
5 Okay. She has a lot of ideas, a lot of great ideas and
6 she calls me the painter. So when you have a person who
7 is visionary, has great ideas, that's what she is. She's
8 very articulate, as you can tell, and also has strong
9 family values and that's why we mesh. I'm more, as she
10 said, prone to detail, just give me the task, I'll do it,
11 but think of it, get it done, I don't have that part, you
12 know, but I can see where she's going and together
13 actually we take it, so that's how when we talk about,
14 you know, not specific skills but those kinds of thoughts
15 as leaders in our organization where we can, you know,
16 take it to where it's got to go. So basically those
17 kinds of skills, and very verbal as far as -- and
18 articulate, eloquently can share what our mission, our
19 vision and both of us as parents of special needs kids,
20 our kids are grown out of our system, but our heart and
21 our belief is still with families.
22 Q. Thank you. I have another question, too. You
23 indicated that you have 13 different curriculums.
24 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
25 Q. Could you name some of them, please?
Page 168
1 MS. FOLLOWELL: Okay. One of them --
2 Q. What they are, just a few of them?
3 MS. FOLLOWELL: Off the top of my head,
4 we have attention deficit hyperactivity disorder as one
5 curriculum that we teach to our families. We also have
6 communication and negotiation. We utilize three videos
7 that we have that we show to families, fat city, families
8 and professionals regarding special needs kids, learning
9 disabilities and how it feels to be a kid who has special
10 needs in our school system, our recordkeeping, things
11 like that, and behavior interventions.
12 Q. And my last question was we talk about
13 therapeutic aide training.
14 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
15 Q. Could you just give us a little bit about what
16 this all is or it is a conglomeration? What do you mean?
17 MS. FOLLOWELL: Okay. The workshops
18 that I just talked about, that's separate. We no longer
19 provide therapeutic aide training. We did it under the
20 Ohana Project.
21 MS. NOBRIGA: It's -- the curriculum
22 was developed for therapeutic aide support people. It's
23 a 40 hour curriculum and it teaches people the attitude
24 skills and knowledge they need in order to be successful
25 in providing the therapeutic services to kids. When the
Page 169
1 curriculum was developed, it was primarily developed for
2 kids that had behaviors that were such where they were at
3 risk of being removed from their homes, so they had
4 behaviors like hurting themselves or hurting other --
5 hurting other kids or adults. So it teaches that kind of
6 skills and knowledge.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 REPRESENTATIVE LEONG: Thank you,
9 Chair.
10 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
11 you. Senator Sakamoto followed by Representative
12 Marumoto.
13 SENATOR SAKAMOTO: Thank you, Chair.
14 BY SENATOR SAKAMOTO:
15 Q. I think parents or families banding together
16 are good to help each other. Is your primary mission now
17 to help families better understand and reduce I guess the
18 frustration with their child as well as the system?
19 MS. FOLLOWELL: Yeah.
20 MS. NOBRIGA: Yes, it is. It is, and
21 this is, you know, for Vicky and myself, there's never
22 enough of us to go around. And so one of the things that
23 we're really trying to teach families is to, you know,
24 once they're -- they have the information, for them to
25 share it with other families that -- so that you can --
Page 170
1 we are able to build a network system, you know, of
2 families out there helping other families and it's just
3 not limited to us or our organization.
4 Q. How much of your effort deals with helping
5 families understand transitions between schools or
6 between systems, CAMHD, DOE, etc.?
7 MS. NOBRIGA: A great deal. We have
8 actually a parent partner who's involved with CAMHD in
9 developing some practice skills for a case manager, for
10 care coordinators and others, providing one on one
11 support to parents whose kids may be returning back from
12 a mainland placement or from being transitioned out from
13 a placement here, you know, in Hawaii or even from one
14 grade level to another, you know, from a more restrictive
15 environment to a less restrictive environment.
16 Q. And this would vary depending on which of the
17 13 groups or people interface, obviously some would have
18 different skills or different knowledge, yeah?
19 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct. Correct. So
20 all of our parent partners have a diverse knowledge base,
21 and so we -- like I said, we have this parent partner who
22 have first hand experience on her child returning from a
23 mainland placement and what that's like and how -- and
24 she has, you know, ideas on how things could have worked
25 best. And so she's able to then support other parents,
Page 171
1 not only that but she's able to help the other parent
2 partners if they have a parent that they're involved with
3 in helping them get that information.
4 Q. Over the years of your contract, as things have
5 been determined, this is what works or this is a good
6 type of curriculum or this is something that doesn't
7 work, how are those compiled so that the system can
8 benefit?
9 MS. FOLLOWELL: We've also provided our
10 workshops to the schools. We have had requests by
11 principals, vice principals, SSCs for us to provide some
12 of our workshops, you know, to their teachers.
13 Q. Do you have like a document that collects some
14 of the this is what works or are you in the process of
15 building one?
16 MS. NOBRIGA: We have -- we have like
17 an evaluation form at workshops that we give. We also
18 have a survey for families in looking at areas of
19 services that they have received and where they feel what
20 works and what haven't worked. We do have a survey like
21 that.
22 Q. I guess what I'm asking you is --
23 MS. NOBRIGA: But not --
24 Q. People who don't attend, whether you make it
25 available or not, how are the good things being
Page 172
1 transmitted to CAMHD and DOE so that the system gains?
2 Not yet or --
3 MS. FOLLOWELL: I think we're getting
4 there. As I said earlier, you know, whoever asks us to
5 come and give them our workshops, we'll go, either it be
6 with the family guidance centers, with the care
7 coordinators or with the -- in the schools right now it's
8 their SSCs who's requesting it or even the principals, so
9 on that level, the information gets out. We also have
10 built partnerships with our PCNCs in the schools. Also,
11 with our other agencies like Department of Justice and
12 Child Welfare, so we're out there letting folks know of
13 the information that we do have and we've been getting
14 requests to provide that information. We don't have a
15 data base, if that's what you're asking, of what has
16 worked and what hasn't worked. That we don't have yet.
17 Q. Would you say that based on your efforts you've
18 saved the State more than what the State and the Federal
19 government have paid for you to facilitate and do what
20 you've done?
21 MS. FOLLOWELL: I think --
22 MS. NOBRIGA: I believe so.
23 MS. FOLLOWELL: I believe so, also, but
24 I think the rewards come more with when you can -- when a
25 parent can be at a table and making the best decision
Page 173
1 that they can for their child because they've had the
2 information to make that decision.
3 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Five
4 minutes are up.
5 SENATOR SAKAMOTO: Okay. Thank you,
6 Chairman.
7 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
8 Representative Marumoto followed by Co-Chair Hanabusa.
9 REPRESENTATIVE MARUMOTO: Thank you.
10 BY REPRESENTATIVE MARUMOTO:
11 Q. I appreciate you ladies coming today. I came
12 in a little late, so stop me if I've covered old
13 territory, but am I to understand that one or both of you
14 are experts in MST, the program?
15 MS. FOLLOWELL: Not MST, no.
16 Q. Okay, then I'm asking the wrong people the
17 wrong questions, so I'll pass at this time. Thank you.
18 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
19 you. Co-Chair Hanabusa.
20 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you.
21 BY CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA:
22 Q. You mentioned that you're part of a national
23 organization or chapter. What's the name of the national
24 organization?
25 MS. NOBRIGA: The Federation of
Page 174
1 Families for Children's Mental Health.
2 Q. Do you know whether or not Ivor Groves has
3 anything to do with this national organization?
4 MS. FOLLOWELL: I don't.
5 MS. NOBRIGA: I don't know.
6 Q. How about Ray Foster?
7 MS. NOBRIGA: I don't know.
8 Q. Judy Schrag?
9 MS. NOBRIGA: I don't know.
10 Q. Lenore Behar? You're saying no, she's
11 thinking.
12 MS. FOLLOWELL: I don't know.
13 MS. NOBRIGA: I'm only thinking because
14 I'm -- I don't think Lenore has anything to do with the
15 federation.
16 MS. FOLLOWELL: If anything, they
17 probably provided breakout sessions at conferences like --
18 MS. NOBRIGA: Conferences we've
19 attended to.
20 MS. FOLLOWELL: Maybe Ray did service
21 testing, but with Judy, Lenore and Ivor I haven't seen
22 them at these nationally and don't know that answer.
23 Q. You seem to know them though.
24 MS. NOBRIGA: We do.
25 Q. And how did you come to know, first starting
Page 175
1 with you, Ms. Nobriga, how did come to know Lenore Behar,
2 Judy Schrag and/or Ivor Groves?
3 MS. NOBRIGA: I first met Lenore and
4 Judy back in I believe it was 1997 when we were a part of
5 the Hawaii Ohana Project, and they came out, I believe,
6 to provide some technical assistance under that system of
7 care grant.
8 Q. So they were providing technical assistance to
9 the Hawaii Ohana Project?
10 MS. NOBRIGA: I believe so, yeah.
11 Q. And when you say technical assistance, what do
12 you mean?
13 MS. NOBRIGA: Assistance in looking at
14 the goals that have been established and looking at ways
15 to create a better system out in the Leeward Oahu area.
16 Q. Is it basically to comply with the consent
17 decree?
18 MS. NOBRIGA: I'm not sure if there was
19 a -- if there was a connection, and if there was, I'm not
20 familiar with it because I think the Hawaii Ohana Project
21 and the consent decree was coming about at the same time.
22 Q. Okay. And Miss Followell, you're saying
23 something else. How did you come to know them?
24 MS. FOLLOWELL: Dr. Groves, basically I
25 met him at a meeting, and we were talking about some of
Page 176
1 the issues and concerns on the Molokai and so maybe
2 couple meetings with Dr. Groves. Never met Lenore and
3 Judy like the way Sharon met, but I know of them.
4 Q. How did you come to know of them?
5 MS. FOLLOWELL: Judy with DOE with
6 working with the IDEA and -- not IDEA, I'm sorry, IEP,
7 and CSP through one of our staff that she's been involved
8 with Judy Schrag and with Lenore just by name and seeing
9 her at couple conferences basically, but personally not
10 knowing them.
11 Q. When you say Judy Schrag's working with the DOE
12 and CSP, I think I got your acronyms correct, what is
13 CSP?
14 MS. FOLLOWELL: There's -- I guess
15 there was an initiative when -- and this is just my
16 understanding from a staff that has been working with
17 Judy Schrag, a committee working together, individual
18 educational plan and the CSP plan, which is a coordinated
19 service plan which the Department of Health uses as far
20 as planning for their students. So that's where I know
21 of Judy.
22 Q. So this is not in any way connected with the
23 Felix Consent Decree, this is a totally different thing,
24 this coordinated service plan, as far as you know?
25 MS. FOLLOWELL: No. It's part of the
Page 177
1 Felix.
2 Q. It's still ongoing?
3 MS. FOLLOWELL: Yes.
4 Q. The people still work with her?
5 MS. FOLLOWELL: Yes.
6 Q. And you said the DOH uses this coordinated
7 service plan?
8 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
9 Q. And you have someone on staff who works with
10 her?
11 MS. FOLLOWELL: Who was -- who is part
12 of a committee. Yes.
13 Q. And that committee deals with the coordinated
14 service plan?
15 MS. FOLLOWELL: And the IEP.
16 Q. And the IEP?
17 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct. So it's a
18 planning committee of people probably from DOH, DOE and
19 our staff.
20 Q. Anyone else other than DOE, DOH and your staff
21 members?
22 MS. FOLLOWELL: I cannot answer that
23 right now.
24 Q. Okay. So you're not part of that?
25 MS. FOLLOWELL: No, I'm not.
Page 178
1 Q. Let me ask you something that you said --
2 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Excuse
3 me, Co-Chair, time is up but I'll yield my time.
4 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you.
5 You're so nice.
6 Q. Let me ask you something else about the
7 therapeutic aide training that you were talking about. I
8 realize that ended in '99 or so, somewhere around there?
9 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
10 Q. We've had many people who provide therapeutic
11 aides come before this committee and they all tell us
12 that the money that they're given includes training, and
13 that's part of their contracted amount. So when you
14 provided training for the therapeutic aides, were they
15 coming from different service providers and coming to you
16 for training?
17 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
18 Q. And you didn't get any money for that from the
19 service providers themselves?
20 MS. FOLLOWELL: No.
21 MS. NOBRIGA: No.
22 Q. It was part of the Ohana Project that you were
23 doing that therapeutic aide training, correct?
24 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
25 Q. Now, the -- you mentioned Na Laukoa and you
Page 179
1 said that you trained Na Laukoa's therapeutic aides.
2 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
3 Q. And that was also in 1999?
4 MS. FOLLOWELL: '98, '99, I believe.
5 Q. So at that time you knew Na Laukoa as a service
6 provider?
7 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
8 Q. Did you ever hear of a program called targeted
9 technical assistance?
10 MS. FOLLOWELL: No, I haven't.
11 Q. You have not heard that?
12 MS. FOLLOWELL: No.
13 Q. Did you ever run across a situation that said
14 these people from Na Laukoa and their helping school
15 complexes comply with the Felix Consent Decree?
16 MS. FOLLOWELL: I've heard of that on
17 the island of Molokai.
18 Q. On the island of Molokai?
19 MS. FOLLOWELL: Not knowing it was
20 targeted technical assistance. That word I first heard
21 today.
22 Q. But you did know Na Laukoa was on the island of
23 Molokai?
24 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
25 Q. And your understanding is they were attempting
Page 180
1 to help the complex comply with Felix, correct?
2 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
3 Q. You also -- there's this thing called the
4 Statewide Family Organization, and that's your contract
5 with CAMHD, isn't it?
6 MS. FOLLOWELL: Correct.
7 Q. What is the Statewide Family Organization?
8 MS. FOLLOWELL: I do short answers.
9 She --
10 Q. Okay. Okay.
11 MS. NOBRIGA: The Statewide Family
12 Organization is Hawaii Families As Allies and --
13 Q. Okay.
14 MS. NOBRIGA: We are, like I had said
15 earlier, you know, we hire parents to provide the
16 services.
17 Q. So let me understand this, because that's kind
18 of confusing to me. You have parents who are on your
19 board, 51 percent are family -- parents?
20 MS. NOBRIGA: Family members.
21 Q. Are any of those parents what you call the
22 providers as well, the ones that sit on your board?
23 MS. NOBRIGA: Employees of Hawaii
24 Families As Allies?
25 Q. Right.
Page 181
1 MS. NOBRIGA: No.
2 Q. Okay. But you have family members that are
3 employees as well?
4 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
5 Q. Now, you also said something that -- you call
6 them family resource specialists. And you hire family
7 members to do that?
8 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
9 Q. So are they family members of the family that's
10 being serviced?
11 MS. NOBRIGA: No.
12 MS. FOLLOWELL: No.
13 Q. So you hire family members, meaning family
14 members of your organization to serve as these resource
15 specialists?
16 MS. NOBRIGA: Let me -- the employees
17 we have are parents of -- parents who have children
18 receiving services from the Department of Health and
19 Education.
20 Q. Okay. So when you say that they're family
21 members, that's what you mean, that they're just -- they
22 have students and they have -- they have children
23 receiving services?
24 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
25 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Okay.
Page 182
1 Co-Chair Saiki, you may have whatever time is remaining
2 back.
3 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: I think
4 there's no time left. Since I yielded my time, we'll
5 take follow up questions, first from Special Counsel.
6 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: I have
7 none. Thank you.
8 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
9 Members, any follow up, two minute follow up questions?
10 Senator Sakamoto followed by Senator Buen.
11 SENATOR SAKAMOTO: Thank you, Chair.
12 BY SENATOR SAKAMOTO:
13 Q. When I was asking you about the cost and how
14 you relate to the families, many people have criticized
15 that many times an IEP or planning, it's been very
16 adversarial and sometimes therefore prolonged. How has
17 your efforts through your classes and parents, how has
18 that helped to reduce adversarialness?
19 MS. NOBRIGA: I believe the services --
20 the support services that we provide the families, you
21 know, with giving them the information and around the
22 system and how to go about stating what they want for
23 their children or what they feel they need for their
24 children in a more appropriate way. As a parent, I can
25 understand how frustrating it is to sit at a table, you
Page 183
1 know, full of professionals and knowing that I'm the one
2 who knows my kid the best and I should be able to
3 contribute some of that information about my kid's
4 abilities and his deficits. And I should be able to also
5 share what works and what haven't worked, and I remember
6 there were times where I got so frustrated that it became
7 adversarial and at the same time, I remember not getting
8 what my kid really needed. For families, I think we need
9 to understand where they're coming from. I think what we
10 have been able to create and help families with is with
11 the information they receive they're better equipped with
12 going into a meeting and stating and advocating for their
13 own kid's needs. I think we have helped the service
14 system. I think had we not have had support people there
15 at the table with families, maybe kids would be kept in
16 restrictive environments longer than they have. Maybe
17 we, you know, as a system we have sent our children out
18 of our state, you know, but I believe we've had a
19 positive impact in working with families and
20 professionals in trying to look at what's best for kids
21 and families.
22 SENATOR SAKAMOTO: Thank you, Chair.
23 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
24 you. Senator Buen.
25 SENATOR BUEN: Thank you.
Page 184
1 BY SENATOR BUEN:
2 Q. I just want to know -- just one question. How
3 do you two -- how do you do an evaluation of the
4 workshops and the services that HFAA provide to measure
5 the success of the -- of what you do?
6 MS. NOBRIGA: We have an evaluation
7 form that is given out to the participants at the
8 workshops and it's looking at the way the workshop was
9 facilitated, if the information given was useful to the
10 participant. It also solicit ideas from the participant
11 as to what could have made the workshop better or what
12 their interest is in, if they want further information,
13 what types of information.
14 Q. So these are written evaluations?
15 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
16 Q. And as provided to the Federal government in a
17 report? For one -- the grant -- for the grant that you
18 receive?
19 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
20 Q. So who else receives these reports?
21 MS. NOBRIGA: CAMHD receives the
22 reports.
23 Q. Anybody else requesting for these reports or
24 these evaluations?
25 MS. NOBRIGA: Not to my knowledge.
Page 185
1 MS. FOLLOWELL: No.
2 SENATOR BUEN: Okay, thank you.
3 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
4 you. Representative Leong.
5 REPRESENTATIVE LEONG: Thank you, Chair
6 Saiki.
7 BY REPRESENTATIVE LEONG:
8 Q. I just had to -- I thought I heard you state
9 that you helped to train the Na Laukoa, and if this is
10 so, in which regard.
11 MS. FOLLOWELL: Therapeutic aide
12 training.
13 Q. I'm sorry?
14 MS. FOLLOWELL: Therapeutic aide
15 training.
16 Q. I see.
17 MS. NOBRIGA: The training wasn't
18 exclusively for Na Laukoa, but Na Laukoa was one of the
19 providers that took advantage of the training.
20 Q. And how long was this training for, was it a
21 period of days?
22 MS. NOBRIGA: Four days.
23 Q. And who were the instructors?
24 MS. NOBRIGA: Vicky and myself.
25 Q. I see. Thank you.
Page 186
1 REPRESENTATIVE LEONG: Thank you, Chair
2 Saiki.
3 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
4 you. Members, any other follow up questions? If not, I
5 have a couple of follow ups.
6 BY CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
7 Q. What exactly -- what was the exact role that
8 you played in the service testing process?
9 MS. NOBRIGA: As an organization?
10 Q. As an organization.
11 MS. NOBRIGA: As an organization,
12 creating the opportunity for our parent partners, for our
13 parents to attend the service testing training, them
14 being educated in the assessment so that eventually they
15 would be asked to participate as reviewers of service
16 testing. The role would be, you know, as we always
17 attempt to increase the family involvement piece on all
18 levels, this would be one way of having a parent
19 perspective on the service testing evaluation level.
20 Q. Were these parents the parents of Felix
21 children?
22 MS. NOBRIGA: Yes.
23 Q. So you were training parents of Felix children
24 to hopefully eventually become service testers,
25 reviewers?
Page 187
1 MS. NOBRIGA: Correct.
2 Q. Did that ever happen?
3 MS. NOBRIGA: A couple of them have
4 been utilized.
5 Q. Are these still reviewers?
6 MS. NOBRIGA: I believe within this
7 past year they have been used.
8 Q. Okay. Thank you.
9 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
10 Members, any follow up questions?
11 SENATOR SAKAMOTO: One more. She took
12 the long answer.
13 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: We'll
14 be nice to Senator Sakamoto.
15 SENATOR SAKAMOTO: Thank you.
16 BY SENATOR SAKAMOTO:
17 Q. I was wondering how you evaluated in terms of
18 for continuance of the contract, or if or if not you're
19 doing what you're supposed to do, who evaluates you and
20 what -- what's that process?
21 MS. NOBRIGA: Well, the system itself
22 evaluates us, you know.
23 Q. Do they give you written evaluations?
24 MS. NOBRIGA: We've had them come in
25 and do an audit.
Page 188
1 Q. Numbers audit or auditing what you do?
2 MS. NOBRIGA: Fiscal audit.
3 Q. The numbers?
4 MS. NOBRIGA: Uh huh.
5 Q. But not in your performance as well or not
6 well?
7 MS. NOBRIGA: No.
8 Q. Okay, thank you.
9 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Okay,
10 thank you. Members, any follow up questions? Okay, if
11 not, thank you very much for your testimony today.
12 MS. NOBRIGA: Thank you.
13 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
14 Members, we'll be taking a five minute recess.
15 (Recess.)
16 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
17 Members, we will reconvene our hearing. Our final
18 witness is Kate Pahinui. Miss Pahinui, we will
19 administer the oath at this time.
20 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA:
21 Ms. Pahinui, do you swear or affirm that the testimony
22 you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth
23 and nothing but the truth?
24 MS. PAHINUI: Yes.
25 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you.
Page 189
1 3210ers, we'll be following our same protocol. We will
2 begin with Mr. Kawashima.
3 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Thank you,
4 Madam Chair.
5 BY SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA:
6 Q. Please state your name and business address.
7 A. Kate Pahinui, 3627 Kilauea Avenue, Child and
8 Adolescent Mental Health Division, clinical services
9 office.
10 Q. And what do you do there with the clinical
11 services office, ma'am?
12 A. I work with the training initiative and I'm the
13 clinical supervising trainer for a statewide program
14 that's designed to improve the skills of family guidance
15 center care coordinators and developing coordinated
16 service plans. I have eight staff who are located at
17 family guidance centers who implement the program.
18 Q. How long have you been serving in that
19 capacity?
20 A. For a year.
21 Q. And prior -- well, let me go back a bit. Will
22 you provide us with your formal education after secondary
23 level?
24 A. I have a Masters degree in psychology from
25 Antioch University, Honolulu campus.
Page 190
1 Q. And your Bachelors?
2 A. Bachelors in liberal studies from Antioch
3 University.
4 Q. When you say Antioch University, Honolulu
5 campus, I wasn't aware that Antioch had a campus here.
6 A. They did in the '80s.
7 Q. I see.
8 A. There isn't currently one.
9 Q. And is that how you obtained your Bachelors,
10 too, here in Hawaii?
11 A. Right. I also went to school at Cal Lit Santa
12 Barbara and Oregon State University.
13 Q. Did you achieve any degrees there?
14 A. No.
15 Q. So your Bachelors was Antioch Hawaii, Masters
16 Antioch. What years were those, ma'am?
17 A. '82 and '85. 1982 and 1985.
18 Q. From 1985 where have you been employed then?
19 Maybe I should -- I ought to go back to your -- what
20 full-time employment you had after you received your
21 Masters degree.
22 A. Right. I went to California and worked for a
23 year in Berkeley California with group home, St. George
24 group homes, and I was a co-director of a day treatment
25 center for 32 children and I also provided therapy. I
Page 191
1 came back to Hawaii and worked at Kahi Mohala for three
2 years as a therapist on the children's unit.
3 Q. What years were those, ma'am?
4 A. I believe it was '86 to '89.
5 Q. Okay. At Kahi Mohala?
6 A. Kahi Mohala.
7 Q. Go on.
8 A. Then I went to Waianae Coast Community Mental
9 Health Center, which is now known as Hale Na'aupono, and
10 I worked for a year as a clinician as an outpatient
11 therapist and then I became the director of children's
12 services there.
13 Q. All right.
14 A. I was director of children's services for five
15 years and then I became the project director of the
16 Hawaii Ohana Project.
17 Q. All right. So when did you become the project
18 director for Hawaii Ohana Project?
19 A. In January of 1995.
20 Q. And you served in that capacity how long?
21 A. Until August of 2000.
22 Q. At which time what happened?
23 A. The grant was over. It was a five year grant
24 and then we had a one year no cost extension and that
25 sixth year was over.
Page 192
1 Q. And that sixth year was the year 2000?
2 A. At that time, yes.
3 Q. And from then, August of 2000, you have been
4 with DOH CAMHD?
5 A. Uh huh.
6 Q. You mentioned providing services, providing
7 therapy. What then is your background and training in,
8 ma'am? What area? Is it psychology, clinical
9 psychology?
10 A. It's in psychology.
11 Q. So you have a Masters in clinical psychology?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Those were the kinds of services you've been
14 providing in these various organizations, the last of
15 which was Hawaii Ohana Project?
16 A. Well, I didn't provide therapy when I was in
17 management, but while I was providing therapy, yes,
18 individual group and family.
19 Q. What was the -- what were the goals of this
20 project, this five year project that you mentioned?
21 A. Well --
22 Q. What was it developed for?
23 A. In a short -- in a capsule, it was the grant
24 was awarded by the Department of Health and Human
25 Services, Center for Mental Health Services which was
Page 193
1 formerly known as CASSP. There were 22 projects
2 nationally and at the end of the grant there were over
3 40. And the purpose was to develop and demonstrate a
4 system of care for children with serious emotional
5 disturbance and their families.
6 Q. I see.
7 A. There were several components to the grant
8 besides developing a continuum of mental health services.
9 Q. What other aspects were there?
10 A. We developed a governing council, we helped
11 develop two community children's councils. We had two
12 grant sites where services were provided and we collected
13 data from those grant sites and had very rigorous
14 evaluation of the program. We collected nine different
15 outcomes, data on nine different outcomes, we did our own
16 analysis. We also provided a great deal of training and
17 technical assistance to the field and we were responsible
18 for information dissemination, holding stakeholders
19 conferences and publishing and doing national
20 presentations and that sort of thing.
21 Q. Was the funding for this project pretty much
22 the same on an annual basis?
23 A. It started at about one million -- I think it
24 was 999 -- 800,000, something, and the second and third
25 year it was 2.6 million and the fourth year it was 3.5
Page 194
1 million and the fifth year it was 2.3 million.
2 Q. Why the reduction in the fifth year?
3 A. I -- we -- that was just the amount that they
4 gave us.
5 Q. I see.
6 A. And I think it was based on their overall
7 funding because there were a lot of projects.
8 Q. So the services that you've provided then were
9 in -- well, in every case, based upon the funding that
10 you received? And you have to answer yes.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. This funding was all Federal funding though?
13 A. Yes, it was all Federal funding.
14 Q. So you did not receive funding from the State
15 or any other --
16 A. No.
17 Q. -- body except the Federal government?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Is that correct?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. There was a State match also required for the
23 grant --
24 Q. Oh, all right.
25 A. -- but that was to the government. I mean that
Page 195
1 was just a State match, it wasn't funds.
2 Q. Was the State match of the same amount as it
3 was from --
4 A. It changed during the years.
5 Q. For example, in the --
6 A. Started out two Federal dollars to one State
7 dollar, and it ended up two State dollars to one Federal
8 dollar.
9 Q. I see. Ended up in which year to be two to one
10 now State --
11 A. The fifth year.
12 Q. Beg your pardon?
13 A. The fifth year.
14 Q. Can you do me a favor, and I think we should do
15 this throughout, but when you and I talk at the same
16 time, sometimes the stenographer has difficulty. And I
17 see where you're anticipating the question I'm asking
18 you, and you're probably right in anticipating it --
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. -- but nonetheless, it causes problems, so
21 please wait until I'm done and then you can answer as
22 much as you want.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. Thank you. Was one of the categories of
25 services you provided something called family stipends?
Page 196
1 Does that sound familiar to you?
2 A. We provided family stipends for training. It
3 wasn't a service.
4 Q. I see. For example, how -- what types of
5 training would you provide family stipends for?
6 A. For workshops that Hawaii Families As Allies
7 would give.
8 Q. You're not -- well, you were sitting here while
9 Miss Followell and Ms. Nobriga were testifying, were you
10 not?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. They mentioned the ten dollar a parent stipend.
13 Is that what you're talking about?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Oh, I see. No other kind of stipends to
16 families for whatever purpose it might be related to
17 mental health services?
18 A. I believe we paid -- I believe we gave family
19 stipends for attending our stakeholders conferences.
20 Q. That's a different thing now?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And what kind of stipends would you provide
23 there?
24 A. The amount of the stipend depended on the
25 amount of time. If it was for an hour and a half
Page 197
1 workshop, it would be one cost, and if it was all day, it
2 would be another. The stipends were managed by Hawaii
3 Families As Allies. I didn't -- I subcontracted to them
4 to manage that.
5 Q. I see. But you do know how much though the
6 stipends were at these various ranges?
7 A. I believe they might have been $25 but --
8 Q. 25 for what?
9 A. For a day, for day care and transportation.
10 Q. All right. Nothing larger than that that you
11 know of?
12 A. Not that I can remember.
13 Q. Well, let me ask you directly, ma'am. We saw
14 some documents that would suggest that expenses were
15 paid, for example, to cover mortgage payments. Does that
16 sound familiar to you?
17 A. That would have been out of our flexible
18 funding and that was allowable by the Federal government.
19 It was in our budget. And flexible funding was a very
20 important part of the project, respite and flexible
21 funding for families. The purpose of the project is to
22 support children to stay in their families so they don't
23 need to be removed into more expensive type of care. And
24 there were a few instances where a family had an
25 emergency where they might have needed first month's rent
Page 198
1 to get into an apartment and we might have covered that.
2 That was managed by the subcontracts. I didn't handle --
3 Q. You know --
4 A. -- the funding for that.
5 Q. Ultimately it was paid by you and, well, the
6 State, too, to the extent that it participated in the
7 payment process, right?
8 A. Our subcontractors were subcontracted by RCUH,
9 the research corporation of the University of Hawaii.
10 Q. Who were your subcontractors?
11 A. We had six.
12 Q. Oh, I see.
13 A. Subcontractors.
14 Q. HFAA was one?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who would have been the subcontractor in the
17 situation, for example, of this mortgage I asked you
18 about?
19 A. Waianae Community Mental Health Center or
20 Suzanna Wesley --
21 Q. I see.
22 A. -- Community Center. Those were our two grant
23 sites.
24 Q. Am I to understand then that his paying for a
25 mortgage payment, you explained why, but that was done
Page 199
1 rarely?
2 A. Rarely.
3 Q. And it was done in a fashion that it wasn't a
4 loan, it was a direct benefit provided to the family?
5 A. I'm not sure what the arrangement was.
6 Q. What -- what was it supposed to be in terms of
7 your organization being the -- I guess the primary
8 funding authority although you subcontracted out the
9 payments to someone else, ultimately the payment
10 obligation came back to you though, right?
11 A. Uh huh.
12 Q. What is your understanding? Was it supposed to
13 be a direct benefit or a loan?
14 A. I guess a direct benefit. I'm not sure.
15 Q. Okay. All right. I appreciate that. How
16 about -- we saw also reference to expenses for a prom,
17 for someone to go to a prom. Does that sound familiar?
18 A. It might have been that one of our high school
19 students who had very severe and challenging behaviors
20 and problems would not have been able to go to the prom
21 without our support, and I would support this.
22 Q. In other words, this would be again, a rare
23 occasion that --
24 A. A rare occasion.
25 Q. -- something like that would be done?
Page 200
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Not regularly?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Sure. All right. Now, was a person by the
5 name of Lenore Behar connected with the Hawaii Ohana
6 Project?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Was she a consultant to the Hawaii Ohana
9 Project?
10 A. No.
11 Q. According to the project's final report, she
12 was one of the consultants retained though, do you know
13 that? According to the final report that was submitted
14 by the project. Were you involved with that final
15 report?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You seem somewhat reluctant. Is it that you
18 know for a fact that that final report had no reference
19 to Lenore Behar or what?
20 A. I don't see how it could have. We never funded
21 Lenore's -- Lenore Behar.
22 Q. As far as you know?
23 A. As far as I know, our technical assistant.
24 Q. Who was responsible for putting together the
25 final report?
Page 201
1 A. My staff, David Leek.
2 Q. Would you have been the person to sign off on
3 it?
4 A. Uh huh.
5 Q. Yes?
6 A. Yes, I would have.
7 Q. So that if in fact Ms. Behar was named as one
8 of the consultants to the project, you certainly would
9 have known that and you certainly would have seen that in
10 the final report if it was there?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is that so? And you do know that as far as the
13 project was concerned while you were there, let's see,
14 you were -- you were in charge of the project for four
15 years?
16 A. For the entire --
17 Q. The entire -- I'm sorry.
18 A. -- project.
19 Q. Entire six years actually. During the time you
20 were there, you cannot recall one occasion where Miss
21 Behar provided services, consulting services to the
22 project in any way?
23 A. No. No.
24 Q. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
Page 202
1 Q. You're pretty sure about that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know who she is?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How do you know who she is? How have you made
6 her acquaintance?
7 A. She was the director of the children's services
8 for North Carolina, and North Carolina had a grant just
9 as we did. And so many of -- I knew many of the chiefs
10 of other mental health systems.
11 Q. Oh, I see.
12 A. Through the project.
13 Q. Is that how you knew her?
14 A. Uh huh.
15 Q. Did you ever work with her professionally?
16 A. She came out to the project once because North
17 Carolina had had several projects like mine and we -- we
18 talked to her about what we were doing, and it was not
19 paid consultation. It was not consultation. It was one
20 time that I can remember the entire part of the project.
21 Q. All right. How about the names Ivor Groves and
22 Ray Foster? Do they ring a bell to you?
23 A. Uh huh.
24 Q. You know who they are, of course?
25 A. Uh huh.
Page 203
1 Q. Yes?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did they play any part in whatever services
4 were provided by the Ohana Project?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you recall the Ohana Project organizing a
7 strategic planning retreat though with Dr. Groves?
8 A. I do now that you mentioned it.
9 Q. What was that about? Do you recall what that
10 project was?
11 A. We did strategic planning retreats and the
12 Ohana Project was for two years part of the Felix
13 operational plan. And however, we didn't do anything
14 special for that. We carried out our project activities.
15 Q. That you would have carried out notwithstanding
16 being a part of the Felix operational plan?
17 A. Right. Right. And he could have participated
18 or observed this strategic planning meeting.
19 Q. Do you recall if the project paid Dr. Groves
20 for anything that he did?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you know if the project paid Ray Foster for
23 anything Mr. Foster did?
24 A. Yes, we did.
25 Q. What did you pay him for?
Page 204
1 A. We paid him to provide training to service
2 reviewers so that we could conduct service testing in the
3 Ohana Project sites, and we did our own service testing
4 over a three year period. That was not connected to the
5 State.
6 Q. What was the nature of payment that would have
7 been made to Ray Foster for his services, about?
8 A. I don't remember.
9 Q. It was a contractual amount though, was it not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Your -- I would say the project's financials
12 should show that, if we ever wanted to check that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And where would we get that information, those
15 documents? Where would they be housed?
16 A. The research corporation.
17 Q. RCUH?
18 A. Uh huh.
19 Q. All right. Now, why were you involved with
20 service testing, ma'am?
21 A. We were aware of service testing when it first
22 was introduced to be utilized in relationship to Felix,
23 and our governing council felt that it was a useful
24 method of monitoring our system as it developed and that
25 also the process would be instructional to the folks that
Page 205
1 were providing services that we were funding. So --
2 Q. And when you say the folks who were providing
3 services, who are you referring to?
4 A. Federally funded staff that were at Waianae
5 Mental Health Center and Suzanna Wesley Community Center.
6 Q. But those Federal staffers though, they
7 essentially provided services to State people though,
8 right, not Federal people, were they? Am I correct?
9 A. They were paid with Federal funds but they
10 served Hawaii's children.
11 Q. I see. Did you have your own testing
12 instrument with which to perform service testing, you
13 meaning Ohana Project? Or did you use -- you recall what
14 service testing instrument you used to --
15 A. We used Ray Foster's instrument.
16 Q. All right.
17 A. The same.
18 Q. When you say Ray Foster's, is it Ray Foster's
19 or -- on the one hand, or Ray Foster's and Dr. Groves' on
20 the other hand, do you know?
21 A. I believe they both developed it, but I'm not
22 positive.
23 Q. All right. Did the project pay for the use of
24 that instrument?
25 A. We paid Dr. Foster for providing the training.
Page 206
1 Q. Oh, I understand. So that as far as you're
2 concerned, for the use of that service testing
3 instrument, you don't recall a fee, for example, being
4 paid for the use of it?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And do you know why -- there may be no reason,
9 but do you know why no fee was paid for the use of the
10 instrument itself? Was there a reason as far as you were
11 concerned that you were aware of such as the instrument
12 not being -- not having been validated anywhere else
13 previously?
14 A. I know it was being used in other states.
15 Q. But you were not aware that the service testing
16 instrument that Ohana Project was using, you're not aware
17 that it had actually been validated in any state previous
18 to the time that you were using it, do you?
19 A. No.
20 Q. In fact, it was a new -- to your knowledge,
21 wasn't it a new instrument that was developed and used
22 for the first time in Hawaii, among other states, but in
23 Hawaii? Is that correct?
24 A. I didn't know that it was used for the first
25 time in Hawaii.
Page 207
1 Q. Okay. Okay. But you do know it was a nearly --
2 a newly developed instrument though, do you -- don't you?
3 Yes?
4 A. I'm -- I don't know --
5 Q. You're nodding your head.
6 A. I don't recall when it was developed.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. And I want to be accurate in my statements.
9 Q. Sure. Sure. And again, what you did was you
10 paid Mr. Foster to come down here and train people to use
11 the instrument. That's the payment, if anything, related
12 to the instrument itself, yes?
13 A. And his time.
14 Q. Yes. Of course.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. His cost to travel here, to live here?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And his time? And you don't know how much that
19 total amount was, do you?
20 A. I don't recall.
21 Q. Now, did -- did the Ohana Project work with the
22 Felix technical assistance panel? That ring a bell to
23 you? Let me back up. Early on in the process, the
24 Federal court appointed a technical assistance panel that
25 was made up of Ivor Groves, Lenore Behar and Judy Schrag.
Page 208
1 Did that panel ever work with the Ohana Project in any
2 way?
3 A. What do you mean by work with us?
4 Q. Consulted with you, observed what you did, give
5 assistance, give advice, anything? Anything that
6 appeared to be an official --
7 A. No.
8 Q. In an official capacity as a technical
9 assistance panel?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You're aware of the existence of the panel
12 though, were you not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did the panel as a panel come to your -- well,
15 come to the project to do anything during the time that
16 you were there, in other words, observing or giving
17 advice, anything of that nature? The panel now.
18 A. Not that I recall.
19 Q. How about individually? Any one of these
20 individuals come to give advice or consult with -- maybe
21 not for a fee, but just to give advice to people at your
22 organization?
23 A. Not that I recall.
24 Q. Okay. That's all I have, Madam Chair. Thank
25 you.
Page 209
1 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you.
2 Members, we will be following the five minute rule.
3 We'll begin with Vice-Chair Kokubun followed by Vice
4 Chair Oshiro. Vice-Chair Kokubun?
5 VICE-CHAIR SENATOR KOKUBUN: I have no
6 questions, Madam Chair.
7 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you.
8 Vice-Chair Oshiro followed by Senator Buen.
9 VICE-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE OSHIRO:
10 Thank you, Chair Hanabusa.
11 BY VICE-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE OSHIRO:
12 Q. Just briefly, I just wanted to get some
13 clarification. When you had said that you were aware
14 that the service testing instrument had been used in
15 other states, what other states would that be?
16 A. North Carolina, and I believe Alabama.
17 Q. And I'm not sure if this was already asked, but
18 are you aware of how much Mr. Foster was paid for his
19 consulting on the training using the service testing?
20 A. Most of the consultants, and we had other
21 consultants come out and do training, several other
22 consultants, other types of training, were paid between
23 800 and $1,000 a day. And I imagine it was in that
24 range.
25 Q. Okay. And do you have any estimate on about
Page 210
1 how many days it was that he would be out there to be
2 paid for?
3 A. Well, the training was two or three days.
4 Q. That's all I have. Thank you.
5 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you.
6 Senator Buen followed by Representative Ito.
7 SENATOR BUEN: I have no questions.
8 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you.
9 Representative Ito followed by Senator Slom.
10 REPRESENTATIVE ITO: I have no
11 questions.
12 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you.
13 Senator Slom followed by Representative Kawakami.
14 SENATOR SLOM: Yes, thank you.
15 BY SENATOR SLOM:
16 Q. What was the instrument that we're talking
17 about, what was it referred to or called, the service
18 testing?
19 A. The service testing instrument?
20 Q. Uh huh.
21 A. That's what we usually called it.
22 Q. Didn't have any other name or any other thing?
23 A. I don't recall.
24 Q. Nothing. And just to get a fix again on the
25 funding, you said that over that six year period of time,
Page 211
1 that the Federal funds were -- and I wasn't sure whether
2 you said 1.9 million for the first year or whether you're
3 saying $900,000?
4 A. 900,000.
5 Q. Was 900,000 for the first --
6 A. 980,000.
7 Q. 980,000, and then I have 2.6 million for the
8 next two years, 3.5 million, and then the final year 2.3
9 million, is that correct?
10 A. Uh huh.
11 Q. And then you said that there was a State match
12 which varied. When did the State match actually start?
13 What year, the contract?
14 A. The first year.
15 Q. In the first year. Okay. Do you have an
16 estimate of what the total amount was of State matching
17 funds?
18 A. The first year might have been three to one.
19 Three Federal dollars to one State. I'm sorry.
20 Q. Okay. Three to one Federal. Uh huh.
21 A. So it would have been about 300,000.
22 Q. Okay. And then it got down to the last year
23 you said, then it was two to one State --
24 A. Uh huh.
25 Q. -- funds, which would have been about 4.6
Page 212
1 million in that year?
2 A. Uh huh.
3 Q. Okay. All right, that's all I have. Thank
4 you.
5 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you.
6 Representative Kawakami followed by -- Senator Sakamoto
7 is not here, followed by Representative Leong.
8 REPRESENTATIVE KAWAKAMI: Thank you,
9 Chair Hanabusa.
10 BY REPRESENTATIVE KAWAKAMI:
11 Q. I just wanted to ask, the service testing was
12 done with whom? The service testing, what groups?
13 A. Our two grant sites.
14 Q. Yeah.
15 A. They provided services, case management,
16 therapy, etc. And so we -- we trained folks from Waianae
17 and Suzanna Wesley, and they were part of the service
18 testing team along with members of the Hawaii Families As
19 Allies, the Community Children's Council and the
20 governing council and they were the reviewers and they
21 did -- conducted service testing at each of the two
22 sites.
23 Q. Just the two sites?
24 A. Uh huh.
25 Q. Okay.
Page 213
1 A. Just our two grant sites.
2 REPRESENTATIVE KAWAKAMI: Thank you,
3 Chair. That's all.
4 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA:
5 Representative Leong followed by Representative Marumoto.
6 REPRESENTATIVE LEONG: I have no
7 questions at this time.
8 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Thank you.
9 Representative Marumoto?
10 REPRESENTATIVE MARUMOTO: No questions,
11 Madam Chairman.
12 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Co-Chair
13 Saiki?
14 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: I have
15 a few questions.
16 BY CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
17 Q. When you refer to service testing, you're
18 referring to the protocol that consists of the two
19 reviews, the school based services review and the
20 coordinated services review?
21 A. At the time when we were doing service testing
22 there was just one process. It hadn't been developed
23 into two different processes.
24 Q. How is it that you -- that your project was
25 brought into contact with Mr. Foster to receive the
Page 214
1 service testing training?
2 A. I don't recall.
3 Q. Mr. Foster is one of the principals of a
4 company called Human Resource or Human -- it's a Florida
5 based company. I forget exactly what it's called.
6 A. Right. Right.
7 Q. So you don't know who referred Mr. Foster to
8 your organization?
9 A. Dr. Foster presented on service testing on a
10 national level at conferences that we went to, so I was
11 exposed to service testing through that route, also, as
12 well as the service testing that was being conducted to
13 monitor compliance for the Felix.
14 Q. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, what year was that,
15 approximately? What year? The year that you retained
16 Mr. Foster?
17 A. I think it -- let's see. I believe that it was
18 in 1996.
19 Q. Okay. So nobody referred him or recommended
20 him to your organization? You just learned of Dr. Foster
21 through a conference?
22 A. I think so.
23 Q. Did you know that he was a business partner
24 with Dr. Groves?
25 A. Yes.
Page 215
1 Q. You knew that at the time of -- that you
2 attended this national conference?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did Dr. Groves ever recommend Mr. Foster?
5 A. No one recommended that we -- that the Hawaii
6 Ohana Project utilize service testing. Our governing
7 council felt that it was a good process.
8 Q. Do you know whether any of the members of the
9 governing council had been approached by someone like
10 Dr. Groves who recommended Mr. Foster?
11 A. No.
12 Q. There are a couple of questions on the amount
13 paid to Mr. Foster for providing the training. I want to
14 distinguish between the cost of the training versus the
15 cost of using the protocol, however it existed at that
16 time. You paid for the training and for his costs
17 associated with the training like his travel and lodging?
18 Did you ever pay for the use of the protocol?
19 A. I don't -- I don't think we did.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. I think we paid a consultative fee.
22 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not the training
23 provided by Dr. Foster was a prerequisite to using the
24 protocol?
25 A. No.
Page 216
1 Q. You're not aware or do you know? I mean what
2 do you mean by no?
3 A. You wouldn't go through -- the training was
4 part of using the protocol so that we could use it to --
5 for monitoring our own grant sites because we felt it was
6 a good process.
7 Q. Right. I guess the question -- I should
8 rephrase the question. The Ohana Project would not have
9 been allowed to use the protocol unless it paid
10 Dr. Foster to provide the training?
11 A. I believe so.
12 Q. Okay. All right. Thank you.
13 A. And we would have wanted the training to use
14 the protocol.
15 Q. I understand that. Thank you very much.
16 BY CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA:
17 Q. Miss Pahinui, what is the consultative fee? Is
18 that different from the $1,000 a day?
19 A. It's the same thing.
20 Q. It's the same thing. I'm kind of confused
21 about one thing. Were you on staff or on the payroll of
22 the State of Hawaii in your role at CAMHD during the time
23 of the Hawaii Ohana Project?
24 A. No, I wasn't.
25 Q. So you were on leave from CAMHD?
Page 217
1 A. The project ended before I started work with
2 CAMHD.
3 Q. Okay. So prior to that, you were not working
4 for CAMHD?
5 A. No.
6 Q. But the funds for the Ohana Project came both
7 from what they call a Federal CASSP grant?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What is CASSP?
10 A. It stood for Child and Adolescent Service
11 Systems Program and it's where the CASSP values come
12 from, the CASSP values were developed.
13 Q. Okay. So that was the initial funding source
14 and it was the lead agency for Hawaii CAMHD, Department
15 of Health?
16 A. Yes. The Federal government put out a request
17 for applications for the system of care grants and CAMHD
18 applied and received one of the grants. So the grant was
19 awarded to CAMHD, to the Department of Health and then
20 CAMHD through a memorandum of agreement, entered into a
21 contract with the University of Hawaii.
22 Q. RSUH?
23 A. RSUH and the university affiliated program to
24 assist in planning, development and implementation of the
25 grant.
Page 218
1 Q. Okay. Was the person responsible on the CAMHD
2 side at that time Tina Donkervoet?
3 A. She -- Tina Donkervoet was the chief near the
4 end of the grant.
5 Q. Prior to that?
6 A. There were several different chiefs involved
7 with the grant starting with Neil Mazer.
8 Q. So how does Hawaii Ohana Project come to be, is
9 that a creation of RCUH?
10 A. No, that's when the grant was submitted. When
11 the grant proposal was submitted, that was the title of
12 the project. That was the title of the grant.
13 Q. Hawaii Ohana Project?
14 A. Hawaii Ohana Project, and we had a project
15 office.
16 Q. Do you know --
17 A. And we had sites.
18 Q. Do you know whether this project was put into
19 RCUH to avoid procurement, the procurement laws of the
20 State of Hawaii?
21 A. I believe it was -- I believe the contract with
22 the University of Hawaii, university affiliated program
23 was due to their experience in writing, developing and
24 implementing grants and the resources that they had
25 including experienced staff and their media center for
Page 219
1 public dissemination of information and so forth.
2 Q. You're also aware of the fact that RCUH does
3 not have the same kind of procurement requirements that
4 the State of Hawaii does?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. And it's through the RCUH then that the Ohana
7 Project basically subcontracted with the six different
8 entities that you -- that you identified?
9 A. Right. Although Waianae was named in the
10 grant. Waianae was -- and Leeward Oahu Family Guidance
11 Center were named as sites in the grant. And I don't
12 believe that -- I'm not sure about the purchase of
13 service abilities of the State back in 1994. Our system
14 wasn't privatized until July '97.
15 Q. Okay. This flexible account that you were
16 referring to when Mr. Kawashima was questioning you, you
17 said that that's managed by the subcontractor?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So does that mean that each subcontractor had a
20 flexible account?
21 A. Yes. They had access to flexible funds that
22 weren't categorically identified with a program or
23 service and that is part of the purpose of these grants
24 to move towards more flexible services and kind of move
25 out of categorical approach.
Page 220
1 Q. Was there an amount of flexible funds per
2 subcontractor or percentage of the amount of money they
3 received was considered flexible accounts?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what is that percentage or number?
6 A. I believe it was about 20,000 a year. It could
7 have varied.
8 Q. And the accountability to that, was that just a
9 reporting to yourself as Ohana Project saying that we
10 expended $20,000 this year in flex funds for the
11 following purposes?
12 A. Flex funds were tied into treatment planning
13 and as was respite and family support. And the spending
14 of flex funds were reported to the project office. We
15 had some oversight of that.
16 Q. But --
17 A. And there were limits per family on how much
18 and there was a process for accessing them and a process
19 for tracking them, etc.
20 Q. But were your subcontractors basically given
21 the right to determine how they're going to expend their
22 flex funds?
23 A. Absolutely. All of the CMHS grant sites had
24 that ability.
25 Q. Thank you very much.
Page 221
1 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Members, do
2 we have any follow up questions?
3 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: I do.
4 Thank you, Madam Chair.
5 BY SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA:
6 Q. But they would ultimately be accountable to you
7 for how they spent that money? In other words, you would
8 ultimately review the expenditures and if you felt
9 something was not justified you'd bring it to their
10 attention?
11 A. Absolutely. They also had to have independent
12 audits every year. That was required.
13 Q. Was that -- was there ever an occasion where
14 you did in fact not disallow the expense because it
15 already had been spent, but filed an expense for which
16 you counseled the person who authorized it? In other
17 words, you disapproved it?
18 A. I did not disapprove.
19 Q. Any expense?
20 A. An expense. However, we did institute
21 procedures and limits on the amount of flexible funding a
22 family could access.
23 Q. What is -- what would that have been?
24 A. I believe it was $1,200 a year.
25 Q. Per family?
Page 222
1 A. Uh huh.
2 Q. Yes? Yes?
3 A. No. There wasn't -- obviously there wasn't
4 enough funding.
5 Q. No, no. I was asking you to answer yes or no
6 and you're nodding your head.
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 Q. Ma'am, before, when was the spending limit per
9 family put into place? What year of the project?
10 A. Probably the second year.
11 Q. And there were no such spending limits the
12 first year per family?
13 A. I don't like to word it that way, but you can.
14 Q. Well, was there -- were there amounts that were
15 spent per family that were high in the first year? Yes?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you give me a range of how much we're
18 talking about?
19 A. I really -- I'm sorry, I really don't remember.
20 It's --
21 Q. There must have been a reason for putting this
22 limit into place though, ma'am, right?
23 A. Uh huh.
24 Q. Well, were you -- was Hawaii Ohana Project
25 involved with foster care, also?
Page 223
1 A. Yes, we were. Actually, flexible funds was a
2 very small part of the services we provided.
3 Q. Right. I'm not sure if your -- your
4 organization was involved, but I heard that there was a
5 situation involving foster care on the Big Island where
6 some agency provided the funds sufficient to complete a
7 renovation of a home, in other words to add -- to place
8 an addition to the home which included of course
9 everything attendant with it such as the building costs,
10 the planning costs, plumbing, all of that kind of stuff.
11 Have you heard of that?
12 A. I haven't heard of it, but I've read about it
13 in reports on different grants that have been published.
14 Q. That wasn't your group that authorized that,
15 was it?
16 A. No.
17 Q. And do you know enough about it to speak to it,
18 that issue?
19 A. I'm not sure.
20 Q. No. I don't want you to if you don't, but if
21 you don't feel comfortable speaking to it. What do you
22 know about it is what I'm asking you.
23 A. Oh, I don't know about that specific instance,
24 but I do know that with programs that have attempted to
25 bring youth back from the mainland and not have them in
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1 expensive programs that very innovative things have been
2 done to wrap services around the child in the home. And
3 that could be one thing.
4 Q. Such as paying for the building of an addition
5 to a home?
6 A. If it had something to do with maintaining the
7 child in that home and there was an issue of privacy and
8 space. But I'm not advocating it, I'm just trying to
9 explain it.
10 Q. Right. One last question, ma'am. You
11 mentioned twice or a few times that -- your governing
12 council.
13 A. Uh huh.
14 Q. Who is your governing council?
15 A. The governing council --
16 Q. Who was your governing council?
17 A. Was made up of representatives from every
18 public child serving agency, so Department of Education,
19 Human Services, Family Court, Mental Health, the
20 Governor's Office for Children and Youth was in operation
21 at that time and participated in the governing council.
22 Q. I see.
23 A. We had family members and community members.
24 The co-chairs of the two community children's councils,
25 and the grant sites were part --
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1 Q. I see.
2 A. -- of it.
3 Q. They're all members of the governing council?
4 A. Uh huh.
5 Q. All right. Thank you. That's all I have.
6 SPECIAL COUNSEL KAWASHIMA: Thank you,
7 Madam Chair.
8 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Any other
9 follow ups? Any other persons besides Co-Chair Saiki?
10 Co-Chair Saiki.
11 CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI: Thank
12 you.
13 BY CO-CHAIR REPRESENTATIVE SAIKI:
14 Q. When Mr. Foster conducted the service testing
15 training in 1996, were there other individuals who came
16 with him to conduct the training?
17 A. No.
18 Q. So he just did it by himself?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you know when you -- I assume you entered
21 into some kind of a contract with him to do the training.
22 Do you know whether or not the contract was -- placed
23 limitations such as whether or not the training only
24 applied to specific sites such as your two sites, so in
25 other words, you couldn't use the protocol or use
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1 anything you learned from the training for sites, other
2 sites, other than the two that you -- that you were
3 responsible for?
4 A. I don't recall that there was a stipulation.
5 Q. Okay. So I'm just wondering if it's a
6 situation where because you went through that one
7 training, you would then be qualified to do service
8 testing throughout the entire state or were you limited
9 just to your two sites?
10 A. No. We were not just -- I don't believe we
11 were limited to our sites. And the Ohana Project was
12 meant to be a statewide initiative. What we were doing
13 was meant to be replicated and we were a part of the
14 entire State systems change.
15 Q. Do you know whether or not Mr. Foster has
16 returned to Hawaii since 1996 to conduct training, or
17 anyone from his company?
18 A. I think that he has.
19 Q. Do you know how often?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you know when he's been here?
22 A. I haven't been involved since we did service
23 testing with the project.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.
25 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: I have some
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1 follow up.
2 BY CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA:
3 Q. Do you sit on the board of the Hawaii Families
4 As Allies?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Was there anyone who was part of this governing
7 council that you know of that presently sits on the board
8 of the Hawaii Families As Allies?
9 A. Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot to mention the
10 executive director of HFAA was part of the governing
11 council.
12 Q. And who was the executive director?
13 A. Debbie Tothdennis and then Vicky Followell and
14 Sharon Nobriga.
15 Q. Were also part of the governing council?
16 A. They were not voting members.
17 Q. But they were part -- ex-officio nonvoting,
18 would that be correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. The -- I have another question for you.
21 There's a report or a little summary that was provided to
22 us, and it says 942 youths were served by the Hawaii
23 Ohana Project. Now, HFAA basically said they don't serve --
24 they don't serve youth per se, they sort of take care of
25 the parents and the family?
Page 228
1 A. Uh huh.
2 Q. Which one of your subcontractors served youth?
3 A. The other five, and the main grant sites were
4 Suzanna Wesley and Leeward Oahu Family Guidance Center
5 originally and Hale Na'aupono.
6 Q. What do they do for the youth that they served?
7 A. Psychiatric services, therapy, school based
8 therapy, home based therapy. Case management was a very
9 big component of the grant. We funded several case
10 managers. Therapeutic foster care, respite, independent
11 living services. What is now called biopsychosocial
12 rehab was started as a pilot program in the grant. In
13 fact, our school based services were a pilot program of
14 actually what's happening now.
15 Q. You presently work for CAMHD, don't you?
16 A. Uh huh.
17 Q. What's your responsibility at CAMHD?
18 A. I oversee a training and mentoring initiative
19 and I supervise eight staff who provide training,
20 technical assistance, mentoring to care coordinators in
21 the family guidance center in the coordinated service
22 planning process. And coordinated service planning
23 process was essential for all of the youth we served in
24 the Hawaii Ohana Project and is required of all youth
25 served by the guidance centers.
Page 229
1 Q. Okay. So basically you're still continuing in
2 the Felix area? Would that be correct? The reason why
3 Mr. Kawashima and I keep telling you yes is because you
4 keep nodding. I'm sorry.
5 A. Yes. Yes. I know. I know. I'm a nodding
6 person. I'm sorry.
7 Q. That's okay. We're not trying to put words in
8 your mouth, it's just that the court reporter isn't going
9 to get a response to our questions.
10 A. I know.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Any other
13 follow ups?
14 VICE-CHAIR SENATOR KOKUBUN: I have one
15 question.
16 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Senator
17 Kokubun.
18 VICE-CHAIR SENATOR KOKUBUN: Thank you,
19 Co-Chair. I just wanted to follow up on the governing
20 council.
21 BY VICE-CHAIR SENATOR KOKUBUN:
22 Q. You had mentioned that the Office of Children
23 and Youth was also -- a representative --
24 A. Uh huh.
25 Q. -- was on that?
Page 230
1 A. Sheila Forman.
2 Q. Sheila Forman. Thank you very much. That's
3 all I have. Thank you.
4 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Are you
5 done?
6 VICE-CHAIR SENATOR KOKUBUN: Yes.
7 Thank you.
8 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Any other
9 follow up from any other members? No? Thank you very
10 much, Ms. Pahinui.
11 A. Thank you. Thank you.
12 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Members, I
13 believe that ends the hearing for today. We are
14 reconvening Saturday at nine o'clock here, and members,
15 as a reminder, one of the issues we have outstanding that
16 we will be voting on on Saturday is the acceptance of the
17 various statements that we have received. Please review
18 it and be prepared to vote on that on Saturday. Any
19 other -- any other discussion, any other matters for the
20 committee, committee members?
21 REPRESENTATIVE KAWAKAMI: Repeat that?
22 CO-CHAIR SENATOR HANABUSA: Yes.
23 Remember, we received a statement from, I believe,
24 Mr. Burger from PREL. And under the rules we -- we as a
25 committee must determine whether we'll make it part of
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1 the record. So we're asking everyone to review that and
2 be ready to vote whichever way come Saturday. If not,
3 members, thank you very much and we will be in recess
4 until Saturday at nine o'clock in this room. Thank you
5 very much.
6 (Hearing concluded at 3:34 p.m.)
Page 232
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2 STATE OF HAWAII )
3 ) SS.
4 CITY AND COUNTY OF HONOLULU )
5 I, SHIRLEY L. KEYS, Notary Public, State of
6 Hawaii, do hereby certify:
7 That the hearing was taken down by me in
8 machine shorthand and was thereafter reduced to
9 typewriting under my supervision; that the foregoing
10 represents to the best of my ability, a true and correct
11 transcript of the proceedings had in the foregoing
12 matter.
13 I further certify that I am not an attorney
14 for any of the parties hereto, nor in any way concerned
15 with the cause.
16 DATED this ______ day of _____________, 2001,
17 in Honolulu, Hawaii.
18 ______________________________
SHIRLEY L. KEYS, CSR 383
19 Notary Public, State of Hawaii
My Commission Exp. May 19, 2003
20
21
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